Atheism As A REJECTION OF--Not Disbelief In--An Evil God (genesis, quote, beliefs)
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No, evolution and abiogenesis are not the same things.
Again, you don't "get" science. You're right, there is no proof as yet about abiogenesis. There may never be. Or there may be tomorrow. But even when the proof comes along, people -- just like you -- are going to deny it, just as some still deny the reality of fossils as tricks of the devil. And by the way, that trick sof the devil routine...I've actually had people tell me that.
You may not realize it, or perhaps you're not expressing yourself well, but when I read this post (and your others on the topic), it's pretty clear that you want it to be something god-like.
I don't think so. I think guys that are here for politics and discussing how the universe works in terms of god claims are the ones that need it god like. You say he (or anybody else) is describing something of a god then you reject it out of hand.
to me, what he is describing the is the universe. Its is far more complex than us. And parts of it are intelligent. we just have to figure out the "volume" of his "something more" and see if it makes sense that a human would think its infinite.
I wouldn't go there. That's for scientists to figure out. For me it's good enough that aliens seeding earth with life offers a satisfactory explanation for why I'm here. I can die with no questions haunting me--certainly not who created the aliens.
>>>>>abiogensis has not been "soundly refuted"
That's for each of us to decide individually. You may feel it has not. Far as I'm concerned until I see scientists get a living organism from something completely inanimate I won't believe it can be done based on common sense.
I guess the sticking point is "intellect". we where formed by the biosphere. Its clearly matches alive more than not alive. In fact, the only people I have ever heard deny it are here on this forum. and they are admittedly only here for political reasons. to stop religion in the states or phet's being here to stop Christianity. They deny anything that they feel a christian can grab onto.
where we are just trying to describe the system we are in.
the question is "intellect". is the biosphere "aware"? I can't answer that. But if I compare lit to a colony I just don't know. I guess it has to be "aware" the real question is "self aware.".
I guess the sticking point is "intellect". we were formed by the biosphere. Its clearly matches alive more than not alive. In fact, the only people I have ever heard deny it are here on this forum. and they are admittedly only here for political reasons. to stop religion in the states or phet's being here to stop Christianity. They deny anything that they feel a christian can grab onto.
where we are just trying to describe the system we are in.
the question is "intellect". is the biosphere "aware"? I can't answer that. But if I compare lit to a colony I just don't know. I guess it has to be "aware" the real question is "self aware.".
I'm not sure I understand the bold. Can you elaborate how we were formed by the biosphere?
I don't necessarily want to believe in a God-figure (I prefer "higher intelligence") but it's just that when I try as a non-scientist to analyze what's before me "higher intelligence" seems the only rational choice. I readily agree I'm doing a 'God of the gaps-thing' but that's only because science offers no rational alternative to it. Science readily admits it doesn't know how life originated. One scientist is proposing the origins might have flown in from Mars:
I have laid out what I perceive are the 3 most likeliest choice: aliens, evolution (but I quickly discount that because that is a later issue) or higher intelligence. I suppose abiogenesis would have to take the place of evolution.
Scientists have theories galore about abiogenesis but no proof. Example:
It proposes that in Earth's prebiotic history, simple organic matter was exposed to energy in the form of volcanoes and electrical storms. That energy would have catalyzed chemical reactions that, in the span of a few hundred million years, could have produced self-replicating molecules.
First problem: how did organic matter get here? Wasn't it all inorganic after the earth cooled?
But there's no more definitive proof for this than there is for a higher intelligence. So we are, generally speaking, at a stalemate.
So far no one has attempted to explain why they believe abiogenesis is the way life began. Or aliens. Or even a higher intelligence. Or even a fourth I'm not thinking of. So please, instead of reprimanding me, some of you please put forth your own theories for how you think life originated (we're not talking evolution here--we're talking life).
Hopefully once we can get to a consensus about which is the likeliest way life began we can talk about the problem of how "evil" is associated with this "way".
I thought I had put forward an explanation, chemistry? Life is just a sub set of chemistry, just as organic matter is just a subset of inorganic elements such as carbon and oxygen. Life and non-life are not two different things.
We may not know the precise path life took, but we do know what life is, a collection of chemicals that produce a known process and with the ability to reproduce itself.
I thought I had put forward an explanation, chemistry? Life is just a sub set of chemistry, just as organic matter is just a subset of inorganic elements such as carbon and oxygen. Life and non-life are not two different things.
We may not know the precise path life took, but we do know what life is, a collection of chemicals that produce a known process and with the ability to reproduce itself.
Their is no magic here, just known chemistry.
Agreed. I didn't track back to Thrillo's post but Organic chemicals are in fact cosmos -wide, like heavy metals. Produced by Novae in fact. Organic compounds (Carbon) Water and heavy metals are ubiquitous in the galaxy. The origin of the material is not a problem, unless one goes all the way back to the oriins of the Stuff from whuch the Big Bang was made, which is really the only 'Don't Know' (or can't explain) that natural origins really have no hypothesis, though virtual particles may contain the start of an explanation.
Strewth Almighty, not the "Biosphere is alive" yet again. I think he's been warned about spamming us with that claim, and it's way off -topic anyway.
errr ...
number one, you are hiding. its not appropriate to evaluate a claim based on hiding. you insert what you want, change what I said, then tell me I am wrong. You and I know why you do that. Its political not looking for the best answers we have.
number two "The hills are alive:" is not proof I am wrong. In fact, its proof that you can't use facts to support your political potion.
number three, like fundy theist, your brand of atheism has to avoid all the information. again, we know why. When we atheist apply the same rigor to atheism, some atheist are clearly less valid. Your position that politics get to decide how the universe works is one of them that comes up short.
I'm not sure I understand the bold. Can you elaborate how we were formed by the biosphere?
How did human's come about? We are/where formed by the interactions of the biosphere. Its actually the universe when it comes down to brass tacks. But due to our size its appropriate to keep the volume to something we humans can comprehend. I keep it to the earth.
So atheist, contrary to some anti-god on CD position, do not have to reject reasonable interpretations on how the universe works. In fact, the only atheist I see that reject "something more" starting god discussions on "reject all of them." are the political based atheist.
For example the ones that claim "I am here to stop religion in the united states" and "I am here to stop Christianity grip on the united states." Which actually shouldn't even be allowed on the forum IMO. Its not religion and spirituality based, its politically based.
Arach, “I don’t know” is not a “possible explanation”.
“I don’t know” is the motivation to determine possible explanations.
"I don't Know" might be the stopping point. ""I do know" so its god"" is also not an explanation.
the start of the universe is a good example. Nobody knows what started it. That's where it ends. I wouldn't even use it for a god or anti-god claim to tell ya truth.
"how life formed" is a little different. We have some information. We know about the system enough to take some guesses on what the "something more" is so that we can evaluate the claims people make.
The only two clearly less valid claims seem to be "deity" and "avoid talking about it or shun it so we can stop religion in the unite states." Maybe they are good for a politics forums, but they are not valid enough to determine the reliability of a god claim in this section.
Agreed. I didn't track back to Thrillo's post but Organic chemicals are in fact cosmos -wide, like heavy metals. Produced by Novae in fact. Organic compounds (Carbon) Water and heavy metals are ubiquitous in the galaxy. The origin of the material is not a problem, unless one goes all the way back to the oriins of the Stuff from whuch the Big Bang was made, which is really the only 'Don't Know' (or can't explain) that natural origins really have no hypothesis, though virtual particles may contain the start of an explanation.
Verdammt, I used the wrong 'there' in my post you quoted.
But I agree, organic compounds (Carbon - Hydrogen) are common outside of life, so once again we have something that is common, not rare. But we are moving towards talking about specific scince, and I am interested in Thrill's arguments and do not want the post locked.
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nce, and I am interested in Thrill's arguments and do not want the post locked.
