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Anyone who studies the history of the doctrine knows that the idea of a place of fiery eternal punishment evolved long before the Christians got hold of it.
I'm confused as to why this makes the idea less credible for you. If anything, its ubiquity throughout all human time and place ought to make the idea more credible.
I'm confused as to why this makes the idea less credible for you. If anything, its ubiquity throughout all human time and place ought to make the idea more credible.
Many formerly ubiquitous ideas ended up not being true. Bleeding with leeches as an effective medical therapy. There being four (or three) elements. The sun revolving around the earth. Some of those ideas were held for very long times, too. So ubiquity, ancientness, and popularity have no qualitative relationship to the likelihood of a thing being true.
Many formerly ubiquitous ideas ended up not being true. Bleeding with leeches as an effective medical therapy. There being four (or three) elements. The sun revolving around the earth. Some of those ideas were held for very long times, too. So ubiquity, ancientness, and popularity have no qualitative relationship to the likelihood of a thing being true.
Hmm, this depends on whether we're talking about "philosophically true" or "empirically true". A thing could be philosophically true while not necessarily being empirically true.
In any case, philosophies regarding the afterlife cannot be measured or studied empirically.
I know that one question atheists constantly ask...and conclude...that IF there's a God, then He would alleviate all of the pain and suffering in life.
Since He hasn't, you conclude that there is no God.
O.k. So be it.
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And yet, there's STILL pain and suffering in this world.
If *WE* are so "great", so wonderful, so terrific...so stupendous...so awesome...and don't feel any need or want from any "God", and that what we do, is BEYOND what any kind of God could do...
...then WHY is there still pain and suffering?
If there's no God, then shouldn't *WE* have solved this after several THOUSAND years?
Shouldn't we have solved the problem of rape...theft...greed...hunger...lying...lust...cov eting?
Hey! We're "smart"! We should already know what's right and wrong and practice what's right...
...right?
How could a person get things soooooooo....................wrong?
There is evil in the world because the higher power--or God if you prefer--created our world and then shirked its duty to at least demonstrate a modicum of interest toward it. Man, being the selfish animal he is doesn't possess a modicum of ability to straighten up its ills. For example, is man responsible for the animal that has killed more people than all the others combined? Man has dried desperately without success to eradicate this animal to make the world a better place and has failed miserably. I speak of the lowly mosquito which kills an estimated million people a year and has killed countless billions since it evolved. We could have used a little help from God, I hope that is obvious, and yet God has chosen to blithely ignore our plight. But I have no doubt you'll find a way to whitewash God of this evil as you have all the others he bears responsibility for inflicting on us.
There is evil in the world because the higher power--or God if you prefer--created our world and then shirked its duty to at least demonstrate a modicum of interest toward it. Man, being the selfish animal he is doesn't possess a modicum of ability to straighten up its ills. For example, is man responsible for the animal that has killed more people than all the others combined? Man has dried desperately without success to eradicate this animal to make the world a better place and has failed miserably. I speak of the lowly mosquito which kills an estimated million people a year and has killed countless billions since it evolved. We could have used a little help from God, I hope that is obvious, and yet God has chosen to blithely ignore our plight. But I have no doubt you'll find a way to whitewash God of this evil as you have all the others he bears responsibility for inflicting on us.
What you've described above is a nihilistic view of the universe that doesn't resemble traditional Christianity in the least. The poor straw man has been ripped to shreds
You're like a clone of the bitter atheist professor from God's Not Dead. Don't be that guy. He wasn't even a believable character, but you're making him believable.
I have many times in this forum asked if praying according to religious people isn't much the same thing as what wishing is for non-religious people. If not the same thing. Perhaps another question not so hard to consider and not so easily dismissed as bashing? I'd certainly like to think so...
I think a difference might be that wishing does not presume that there is an entity in a position to grant what you wished for.
The doctrine of eternal hell is eminently reasonable and rational.
As should be expected since the doctrine is so eminently reasonable and rational. Christianity was only necessary to refine the doctrine.
Your mind is a complete enigma to me, Mike. I cannot remotely comprehend on what rational basis you would ever conclude that Eternal hell for anything in a finite life is eminently rational?!?!? There may be supernatural or superstitious rationalizations for such an abomination, but nothing remotely rational. let alone eminently so.
The doctrine of eternal hell is eminently reasonable and rational.........
Just Not rational nor reasonable in the Bible because biblical hell/ grave comes to a final end.
Biblical hell is cast empty into a symbolic ' second death ' after everyone in biblical hell/grave is ' delivered up ' (resurrected) -Rev. 20:13-14
Emptied-out hell is then cast vacant into that symbolic lake the ' second death ' for vacated biblical hell.
What is biblically reasonable and rational is found at Psalm 92:7; Psalm 104:35; Isaiah 11:3-4; Rev. 19:14-15
The 'executional words from Jesus' mouth' 'destroys ' the wicked - gone forever.
Sinner Satan is wicked and will also be 'destroyed' by Jesus - Hebrews 2:14 B.
First of all, suffering is right up the Buddhist alley, so to speak.
I don't think we atheists are saying that god should be responsible for ending all suffering.
That's such b.s, phet. You know darn well that you all keep on saying that IF there's a God, then HE should end all suffering! This has been repeated by atheists (especially) over and over again.
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First, I think we have to differentiate between the suffering a person puts on himself or herself, as opposed to mass suffering where the individual has no personal responsibility.
What "mass" suffering are we talking about? It's not like some groups of like-minded people somehow found each other and decided to get together. At least, not before the internet.
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To us, the perfect example are the number of CHILDREN who die each year due to starvation and undernutrition each year -- according to UNICEF, 3.1 million -- more than half of global child deaths. Is a 2 year old, or even a 12 year old really responsible for his/her own suffering?
Oh, fercyrin out LOUD. According to YOU , there's NO GOD. So those 3.1 billion people who are suffering--and IF there's no God, then WHO is responsible for their suffering?
So don't give me this whole, "a 2 year old this", or a "12 year old that". Kids still DIE every day If there's no God, and if WE'RE so "great", then WHY does this still happen?
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When I was a child growing up in the Methodist Church, there were often prayers in church to solve world hunger. Are you saying the minister(s) were wrong to conduct prayers asking god to solve the problem?
Of course not But if you actually read the bible, this is supposed to happen. Wanna know why? Again, READ the bible!
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Why didn't the congregation saying all those prayers -- that clearly weren't working -- open up their wallets and pocketbooks and put down some serious money to solve the problem. Why?
How do you know those prayers weren't working? Are you in their lives every day?
Sometimes people pray, and have no idea if their prayers were heard. But again, this comes down to faith...something you have little knowledge of.
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Those christians were relying on god to do it. So it's not just atheists who bring this up, it's also christians through their prayers.
True Christians know that God will act on His own time. After all, He took several hundred years to act on the Israelites to get out Egypt. Read the Scriptures from Moses to Chronicales' God didn't always act immediately. And if you actually read the Scriptures, you'd understand WHY.
That's such b.s, phet. You know darn well that you all keep on saying that IF there's a God, then HE should end all suffering! This has been repeated by atheists (especially) over and over again.
What "mass" suffering are we talking about? It's not like some groups of like-minded people somehow found each other and decided to get together. At least, not before the internet.
Oh, fercyrin out LOUD. According to YOU , there's NO GOD. So those 3.1 billion people who are suffering--and IF there's no God, then WHO is responsible for their suffering?
So don't give me this whole, "a 2 year old this", or a "12 year old that". Kids still DIE every day If there's no God, and if WE'RE so "great", then WHY does this still happen?
Of course not But if you actually read the bible, this is supposed to happen. Wanna know why? Again, READ the bible!
How do you know those prayers weren't working? Are you in their lives every day?
Sometimes people pray, and have no idea if their prayers were heard. But again, this comes down to faith...something you have little knowledge of.
True Christians know that God will act on His own time. After all, He took several hundred years to act on the Israelites to get out Egypt. Read the Scriptures from Moses to Chronicales' God didn't always act immediately. And if you actually read the Scriptures, you'd understand WHY.
No, Mink, I certainly don't say that god should end all suffering, but I think -- if he is a loving god -- that he ought to end suffering that the individual can't control. When an individual causes his own suffering...that's for him to solve. Of course, if I loved someone, I'd help them. God doesn't. He's too busy finding car keys.
What mass suffering are we talking about. I already gave you the example of children starving to death. But we can in Ukraine.
Fercyrin out LOUD, I'll say it again. If the individual is not responsible for his own suffering, god ought to step in...if he's a loving god...as you folks mostly claim.
I have no interest in going back to the OT, which was written by Stephen King...oops, I mean the hand of god. The NT is better, and it contains some good advice in some things.
I had faith for many years, till I realized it was all a charade that the gullible suck up.
Why was it reasonable for god to take several hundred years to help 'his people', the Israelites? Didn't care? Didn't have the power claimed? To lazy? Busy finding car keys. While thousands suffered for their entire lives. Sorry, I just don't respect that.
Again, I have no desire to go back to the bible. There are better books.
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