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I know that one question atheists constantly ask...and conclude...that IF there's a God, then He would alleviate all of the pain and suffering in life.
Since He hasn't, you conclude that there is no God.
O.k. So be it.
....
....
....
And yet, there's STILL pain and suffering in this world.
If *WE* are so "great", so wonderful, so terrific...so stupendous...so awesome...and don't feel any need or want from any "God", and that what we do, is BEYOND what any kind of God could do...
...then WHY is there still pain and suffering?
If there's no God, then shouldn't *WE* have solved this after several THOUSAND years?
Shouldn't we have solved the problem of rape...theft...greed...hunger...lying...lust...cov eting?
Hey! We're "smart"! We should already know what's right and wrong and practice what's right...
...right?
First of all, suffering is right up the Buddhist alley, so to speak.
I don't think we atheists are saying that god should be responsible for ending all suffering. First, I think we have to differentiate between the suffering a person puts on himself or herself, as opposed to mass suffering where the individual has no personal responsibility.
To us, the perfect example are the number of CHILDREN who die each year due to starvation and undernutrition each year -- according to UNICEF, 3.1 million -- more than half of global child deaths. Is a 2 year old, or even a 12 year old really responsible for his/her own suffering? When I was a child growing up in the Methodist Church, there were often prayers in church to solve world hunger. Are you saying the minister(s) were wrong to conduct prayers asking god to solve the problem? Why didn't the congregation saying all those prayers -- that clearly weren't working -- open up their wallets and pocketbooks and put down some serious money to solve the problem. Why? Those christians were relying on god to do it. So it's not just atheists who bring this up, it's also christians through their prayers.
The doctrine of eternal hell is eminently reasonable and rational.
As should be expected since the doctrine is so eminently reasonable and rational. Christianity was only necessary to refine the doctrine.
Why wouldn't you think the Christian faith simply stole the idea from earlier faiths because it was so effective at keeping people from leaving the faith thus keeping the money rolling for the church? That's the eminently more rational explanation.
Why wouldn't you think the Christian faith simply stole the idea from earlier faiths because it was so effective at keeping people from leaving the faith thus keeping the money rolling for the church? That's the eminently more rational explanation.
Wow, no it's not. You're advocating a wild conspiracy theory with no evidence to support it.
Even so; why can't Christianity "steal an idea" if that idea is true? Truth is truth.
Christianity did not spontaneously generate in a cultural and religious vacuum. Of course it built on what came before it.
Did you even read Mystics comment thar I replied to or do you automatically argue?
Part of Mystics Reality is not part of mine. And you have no clue about what is in my imagination hence it is not in yours and his view of God is not in my reality hence to me his God is not a fact. And much of what he says is Reality appears to be his jmagination and hus imaginatiin is not part of anyone realuty but his.
Hence his statemen is his opinion not a fact.
Reality is One Thing (God)...and thus everything and everyone (including all their imagination) is part of what comprises that same Reality.
There is only One "Reality". It is the same for everyone.
Reality is One Thing (God)...and thus everything and everyone (including all their imagination) is part of what comprises that same Reality.
There is only One "Reality". It is the same for everyone.
Make up your mind, first you say imagination is part of imagination but now everyones reality is the same. So my imagiation is part of everyones reality, no way.
Reality is God is simply Mystics opinion of which you agree, does not mean it is or is a fact.
Make up your mind, first you say imagination is part of imagination but now everyones reality is the same. So my imagiation is part of everyones reality, no way.
Reality is God is simply Mystics opinion of which you agree, does not mean it is or is a fact.
Not an "opinion". Not that that would matter as to what is true and/or valid.
The word/term "G-O-D" is formally defined (among other meanings/definitions) as "The Supreme or Ultimate Reality". So.....
I have many times in this forum asked if praying according to religious people isn't much the same thing as what wishing is for non-religious people. If not the same thing. Perhaps another question not so hard to consider and not so easily dismissed as bashing? I'd certainly like to think so...
Many non-theists have adopted "thoughts" in place of "prayers", as in "thinking about you in this terrible time" or "sending positive thoughts your way in this situation". I think "I'm rooting for you" is about as useless as prayer, but in my view, it's far more honest.
If someone posts on one of the fora here that they have, say, a fatal cancer diagnosis and it's someone I don't know IRL or live close to or never heard of before today, there's really nothing I can do except bear witness and show solidarity, and maybe offer advice if asked for it, so I'm not saying it's hypocritical to say "I'm thinking about you". It is just better qualitatively in my view that saying in effect, "I've asked god to handle this and if he doesn't, that's on him, not me". I feel strongly that Christians offering to pray don't have much skin in the game. In my own former sect, these things were said and done reflexively by the vast majority of people. We had a handful of "intercessors" or "prayer warriors" who would spend serious time beseeching god, on the order of hours per day, for anything you'd ask them to, which regardless of what I think of its efficacy, is at least an admirable impulse. But most people in my observation just used it as a "get out of empathy free" card, I'm afraid. A way of putting something uncomfortable behind you and getting on with your day.
It is also interesting that the Bible often mentions fasting in the same breath as praying when it comes to serious matters, and almost no one does that anymore.
It is also interesting that the Bible often mentions fasting in the same breath as praying when it comes to serious matters, and almost no one does that anymore.
How would you know that? The ones who are fasting aren't talking about it.
Matthew 6:16-18 And when you fast, do not look gloomy like the hypocrites, for they disfigure their faces that their fasting may be seen by others. Truly, I say to you, they have received their reward. But when you fast, anoint your head and wash your face, that your fasting may not be seen by others but by your Father who is in secret. And your Father who sees in secret will reward you.
The Apostolic Churches mandate fasting during certain days and times of the year. We're in Lent right now, so most Christians throughout the world are fasting (or at least are supposed to be).
...though I have to assume that when you say "almost no one", you really mean "almost no Protestants".
First of all, suffering is right up the Buddhist alley, so to speak.
I don't think we atheists are saying that god should be responsible for ending all suffering. First, I think we have to differentiate between the suffering a person puts on himself or herself, as opposed to mass suffering where the individual has no personal responsibility.
To us, the perfect example are the number of CHILDREN who die each year due to starvation and undernutrition each year -- according to UNICEF, 3.1 million -- more than half of global child deaths. Is a 2 year old, or even a 12 year old really responsible for his/her own suffering? When I was a child growing up in the Methodist Church, there were often prayers in church to solve world hunger. Are you saying the minister(s) were wrong to conduct prayers asking god to solve the problem? Why didn't the congregation saying all those prayers -- that clearly weren't working -- open up their wallets and pocketbooks and put down some serious money to solve the problem. Why? Those christians were relying on god to do it. So it's not just atheists who bring this up, it's also christians through their prayers.
Yeah poverty and its knock on effects like food insecurity exist not because the poor don't try hard enough, but because the rich are insatiable. We have the ability, but not the will, to end poverty and want -- we have for some time. We just don't want to, as a society. Prayer is one of the many ways we avoid facing that reality. We pretend it's an unsolvable problem that we have to give to god, who inscrutably does not do anything about it, so we just shrug. The Bible even says, "the poor you will always have with you", just in the same way it assumes slavery rather than taking a stand against it. "Slaves, obey your masters. Masters, don't beat your slaves so much that they die within x days of the beating". Always leading from behind!
Some suffering is self inflicted, and/or more a matter of how one frames or their thinking or prioritized attention to. Think of all the people suffering today because Will Smith slapped Chris Rock last night, for example. The outrage, the umbrage, the sympathy, the drama, the gossip, the smug judgment. We will have to put up with this for days, if not weeks! It's like the Suffering Olympics!
I don't think for purposes of this conversation that kind of suffering really applies.
As example of unchosen suffering, my stepson did not ask to be born with autism or to have to work 10x as hard in a lot of areas of life to achieve the same outcomes as "normies" would, no matter how good his attitude his. That's suffering. On the other hand, if nothing in the fridge tonight is to his liking for supper, that's NOT suffering -- or at best, it's chosen suffering.
How would you know that? The ones who are fasting aren't talking about it.
Matthew 6:16-18 And when you fast, do not look gloomy like the hypocrites, for they disfigure their faces that their fasting may be seen by others. Truly, I say to you, they have received their reward. But when you fast, anoint your head and wash your face, that your fasting may not be seen by others but by your Father who is in secret. And your Father who sees in secret will reward you.
The Apostolic Churches mandate fasting during certain days and times of the year. We're in Lent right now, so most Christians throughout the world are fasting (or at least are supposed to be).
...though I have to assume that when you say "almost no one", you really mean "almost no Protestants".
In the context of my actual point, I don't recall anyone ever offering to fast AND pray for someone else in my entire life. And in general the context of prayer generally amounts to "I'll mention it for 15 seconds along with my usual litany of requests tonight, assuming I don't forget". I mean there's no accountability for such offers. How do I know they actually did it?
Yes that may be more a Protestant thing for all I know, but what of it? It's real enough. Do Catholics get divine intervention more reliably than Protestants? No, they have their own special problems. Not least that, as you point out, ritual fasts and "giving x up for Lent" are theoretical more than real for an awful lot of people. I don't think it's unfair to say most.
Every church of any kind I've ever seen, in moments of honesty the more pious members will tell you that 10 percent of the congregation does 90% of the work, whether it's spiritual or physical work.
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