Atheism As A REJECTION OF--Not Disbelief In--An Evil God (hell, church, atheist)
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I think religion is soothing and comforting for lots of Christians (other religions too but they don't have eternal damnation). In some way these Christians are able to blot from their minds the horrors of eternal damnation and take the more benign aspects of it into their lives and that helps make their lives more bearable.
It would be counter-productive for a Christian to do the bolded, as that would lead to complacency and presumption. Since an eternity in hell is always a possibility, avoiding it should always be on our minds.
Quote:
Originally Posted by thrillobyte
Christians should be told that eternal damnation was never anything more than a mind control device to keep the faithful from straying from Christianity--the old carrot and stick. There's not a bit of truth to it at all. I believe even the early church clergy believed this but recognized the power of threat to control people's lives so they used it to keep themselves in power and wealth.
What a thing to say. By what authority do you claim the bolded?
But here's my question -- if a friend was dying of cancer, and you said you would pray for him, and he specifically asked you not to, would you ignore his request.
It's not unlike a dilemma that I faced quite a few years ago. After becoming principal at some point I gave each of my parents (separately, they were divorced) a tour of my school. Not only did they meet and hear good things from the teachers, but I even invited a few students to meet them.
Fast forward a few years, and I went to visit my father when it was clear he wouldn't live but a few more days. I got to spend a week with him, and on my last day before returning to work he said he had one "last" favor to ask of me. To not attend his funeral because "Those kids in your school need you to be there, with them. You can't do anything for me at that point". I said, "Of course I'm coming to your funeral". "No. I want you to stay with your kids". It was literally a death bed last request and he made me assure him I would follow his wishes. I had no sooner gotten home and I got the phone call that he had passed just 7 hours after making that promise to him. And so, despite feeling that I needed to be there for his funeral, instead I did the last thing he ever asked me to do.
People sometimes feel strongly about these things. And so what I have learned to do is simply ask, "May I include you in my meditations". Then I am respecting their choices.
We've had entire threads about this...started by anti-Religionists that have headtrips about people praying for them.
I guess you could even look at it as that's a way the world is screwed up, and God (pick one) is responsible for not stopping it.
Your example is not quite how it goes. The way it goes is more like a boxing trainer that has someone in a match, and they are struggling. In between rounds, the trainer tells them that they need to see him do better and not take so much punishment, or he is going to throw in the towel. The fighter tells them that they do not want him to stop the fight. The match goes on and the fighter is getting hammered even worse, and is getting badly hurt. After he has seen enough of that, the trainer does the right and proper thing, and throws in the towel to stop the fight, even against the fighters wishes...because the request was not sensible and only based upon foolish pride.
Another example: You have parents of a student that tell you that they understand that children can be cruel and mean...but even if you see their child being bullied and abused, they do not want you to do anything about it, because they want their child to learn how to handle adversity by themselves without assistance. Of course, you would not go by that.
The view that someone praying for you is a positive and desired thing, is so nearly universally held...it could be considered a Standard of Human Understanding. To think otherwise is to be in breach of that Standard, and can be dismissed as defective thinking.
But here's my question -- if a friend was dying of cancer, and you said you would pray for him, and he specifically asked you not to, would you ignore his request.
Well if I were still a believer, of course I would. Would others? I suspect most would.
My point was just that it might be a little overdetermined to get advance permission from someone before praying for anything, as most will want your prayers (if they are believers) and because it is on god to (not) answer, it is not like some magic power the one praying has to impose some outcome on the person prayed for.
Quote:
Originally Posted by phetaroi
It's not unlike a dilemma that I faced quite a few years ago. After becoming principal at some point I gave each of my parents (separately, they were divorced) a tour of my school. Not only did they meet and hear good things from the teachers, but I even invited a few students to meet them.
Fast forward a few years, and I went to visit my father when it was clear he wouldn't live but a few more days. I got to spend a week with him, and on my last day before returning to work he said he had one "last" favor to ask of me. To not attend his funeral because "Those kids in your school need you to be there, with them. You can't do anything for me at that point". I said, "Of course I'm coming to your funeral". "No. I want you to stay with your kids". It was literally a death bed last request and he made me assure him I would follow his wishes. I had no sooner gotten home and I got the phone call that he had passed just 7 hours after making that promise to him. And so, despite feeling that I needed to be there for his funeral, instead I did the last thing he ever asked me to do.
People sometimes feel strongly about these things. And so what I have learned to do is simply ask, "May I include you in my meditations". Then I am respecting their choices.
I wonder how clearly your Dad was thinking at the end there, but it is not for you to second-guess. I'm glad you honored his request, even though it probably cost you more than a brief absence would have cost your students. I mean, by his deathbed logic, you should not ever call in sick to work or take a vacation.
It is sweet how much he appreciated and admired your work!
It would be counter-productive for a Christian to do the bolded, as that would lead to complacency and presumption. Since an eternity in hell is always a possibility, avoiding it should always be on our minds.
What a thing to say. By what authority do you claim the bolded?
Authority?
By what 'authority' does any person have to say anything, one way or another. about religion/spirituality?
By what 'authority' does any person have to say anything, one way or another. about religion/spirituality?
The Successors to the Apostles speak with the Authority of Christ; but that's neither here nor there. Thrill made an absolute claim implying that he has some special type of knowledge that many of the rest of us are lacking.
Well if I were still a believer, of course I would. Would others? I suspect most would.
My point was just that it might be a little overdetermined to get advance permission from someone before praying for anything, as most will want your prayers (if they are believers) and because it is on god to (not) answer, it is not like some magic power the one praying has to impose some outcome on the person prayed for.
I wonder how clearly your Dad was thinking at the end there, but it is not for you to second-guess. I'm glad you honored his request, even though it probably cost you more than a brief absence would have cost your students. I mean, by his deathbed logic, you should not ever call in sick to work or take a vacation.
It is sweet how much he appreciated and admired your work!
I think his thinking was that since we lived a 6-8 hour drive apart that it would really be a 3 day absence. At least up to that last day, his thinking was quite clear.
It would be counter-productive for a Christian to do the bolded, as that would lead to complacency and presumption. Since an eternity in hell is always a possibility, avoiding it should always be on our minds.
What a thing to say. By what authority do you claim the bolded?
By the authority of reason and rationality. Anyone who studies the history of the doctrine knows that the idea of a place of fiery eternal punishment evolved long before the Christians got hold of it.
The doctrine of eternal hell is eminently reasonable and rational.
Quote:
Originally Posted by thrillobyte
Anyone who studies the history of the doctrine knows that the idea of a place of fiery eternal punishment evolved long before the Christians got hold of it.
As should be expected since the doctrine is so eminently reasonable and rational. Christianity was only necessary to refine the doctrine.
I think most people don't realize that unless the prayer is specifically requested to pray for something or somebody, what the prayer is doing is choosing to impose the power of their own will on the recipient.
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I am an atheist, so prayer is not something I believe in regardless the intent, but I'd caution about such generalities. I've heard so many versions about what prayer is to those who practice prayer, I don't think defining what prayer is so simply is very accurate either. Certainly not entirely accurate.
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