The Beginning of Life (planet, quote, God, evolution) - Religion and Spirituality -Christianity, Judaism, Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism, Atheism, God, Universe, Science, Spirituality, Faith, Evidence - Page 56 - City-Data Forum

Harry Diogenes · 10-15-2020, 11:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iwasmadenew

IWMN: “Phetaroi, would like to have a structured debate with me?”

Phetaroi: ...

Harry: “IWas *, can you at least once try and refute point 6”

IWas *: ...

Insert same gif.

phetaroi · 10-15-2020, 11:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Harry Diogenes

Harry: “IWas *, can you at least once try and refute point 6”

IWas *: ...

Insert same gif.

I doubt that Iwas even knows what a structured debate is. The structure he wants is something that we have seen with him time and time again -- basically where he tries control the discussion. I doubt that anyone who been here long is going to fall for that again.

Accomplished_Failure · 10-15-2020, 12:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Harry Diogenes

I will read the rest after lunch, but so far you have fallen at the first fence.

not sure if you'd mentioned it....

"According to the journal, Thorvaldsen and Hössjer not only failed to disclose their links to creationists (more on that in a second), but they actively hid their work’s adjacency to intelligent design by leaving that phrase out of their keywords until after the editing process was complete."

[url]https://retractionwatch.com/2020/10/07/elsevier-journal-disavows-but-does-not-retract-paper-on-intelligent-design/#more-120616[/url]

[url]https://www.reddit.com/r/DebateEvolution/comments/j6w16x/creationists_publish_loweffort_paper_to_lowimpact/[/url]

pneuma · 10-15-2020, 04:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TRANSPONDER

It's to be expected that thousands of peer -reviewed articles about evolution would be dismissed by you as mere opinion, but one paper in a Biology journal and which was rather about cosmology than biology and does not (to the unwary) immediately shout the ID implications, is held up by you as scientific proof, or a disproof of all science debunking ID or what exactly?

Ok. It was not by Behe, so Harry got that wrong. That is neither here nor there. The paper appeared with a reference to a rebuttal which you haven't mentioned.

https://www.sciencedirect.com/scienc...2251932030312X

Harry's counter argued why the paper's conclusions are in fact wrong. So what are you arguing, in fact. 'One ID paper got peer reviewed, thus ID is true'? That paper on polonium haloes that got peer reviewed later had the YE implications pointed out and that was embarrassing, too. It was given more scrutiny and some of the conclusions were found to be arguable. But (at the time) Creationists were sticking to the paper as 'scientifically proving Young Earth', and you are doing something of the kind here.

No, this is not honest debate. This is on you part the 'one shot win'. You have a few papers with ID implications and you pretend that proves your entire Creationist claim, or I can't see just what you are arguing.

There's another point that I can't recall you ever answering: even if ID or YE was proven, why would that do anything to validate Christianity? You still have to show which god was the one that did it.

that is a lot of conclusion that you are drawing about me from, well out of your (insert word of choice) and then nothing more then your usual anti god rants

pneuma · 10-15-2020, 04:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Harry Diogenes

The first thing I saw was that there is an answer to this paper that will be published in the Journal of Theoretical Biology, Volume 507, 21 December 2020, Pages 110457. You can read it here. https://www.sciencedirect.com/scienc...12X?via%3Dihub

First problem, this is just talking about specified complexity. Unless it is using a different definition of specified, you have the problem that every single complex structure in isolation is highly specified, which does not lead to intelligence.

Problem 2, the paper is arguing against chance (!C), which in Bayesian terms means everything else that is not chance. That includes ID, aliens AND evolution.

Problem 3, and I am still reading the introduction - "Fine-tuning and design are related entities." This is only true for specific definitions of 'fine tuned', so immediately we have question begging.

A = fine tuned
Theta = theory

Problem 4, they are using A for fine tuned and low probability of chance, where fine tuned can reference other options. See problem 2. A should be one option, so they have a false dichotomy here. Ironically they then talk about abductive reasoning, which accounts for the probability of all other options.

Problem 5, they are discussing the Anthropic Principle, which is 1) irrelevant here, 2) argues against a designer (which must also be fine tuned), 3) is just an opinion, 4) is question begging using a false statement (Since multiverse hypotheses do not predict fine-tuning for this particular universe any better than a single universe hypothesis, it follows that multiverse hypotheses are not plausible explanations for fine-tuning), 5) uses phrases like machines, and 6) references Behes non-existent evidence as if it existed. And they were doing so well.

At last, the main results.

Problem 6, randomly selecting a rare option ("ATP binding proteins from a random sample of sequence space regardless of the fold") from a very large pool of possibilities is 1) just fishing for a large, improbable number, and 2) has nothing to do with "Darwinian" processes.

Problem 7, plugging garbage the data from problem 6 in to Bayes theorem produces garbage output. And I have only read 1/3 of the paper.

I will read the rest after lunch, but so far you have fallen at the first fence.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Harry Diogenes

Problem 8 before I start reading, note we are talking about complex proteins AS THEY EXIST NOW. No one is arguing complex proteins formed AS THEY EXIST NOW.

Now to continue using the scientific method.

Problem 9. Statements like "Using such estimates, the proteins of life are found to be specific kinds of events with low probability" are deliberately misleading. Low probability of what? All this paper has shown so far is the low probability of finding a rare protein in a random search, not the probability of that protein evolving.

Problem 10, relying on Axe said something in a book (not a science paper), therefore what Axe said in 2016 must be true while ignoring the many, many other biologists who do not recognize this alleged improbability of evolution. Using books is bad form in science papers.

Problem 11, Koonin's philosophical paper and another book. Also relying on a specific RNA origin while ignoring other possibilities, so once again just fishing for a large improbability number. If they can use Koonin's figure of 10 to the power of 1018, I can point to McFadden's calculation of 10 to the power of 41 (which in cosmic terms would be inevitable).

Problem 12, Behe's non-existent irreducible complexity evidence again.

Problem 13, Dembski.

Quickly scrolling past more dubious sources we get problem 14, “irreducible complexity” (Michael Behe), and “specified complexity” (William Dembski), both of which have no scientific merit.

In conclusion this is just misusing actual (and irrelevant) data, ignoring science using more probable values, and using refuted creationist science.

And I did not even need to use any Bayes.

Harry you totally missed my point. I was not asking you to read it and see if you agree with it or not, I knew you would not. I asked you to read it because you guys are saying it slipped through the cracks and I have said if one actually reads the paper there is no way they did not know it was about fine tuning and design. in other words an ID argument from science.

So you read the paper, now did they sneak it in or was it pretty plain what they were talking about?

Iwasmadenew · 10-15-2020, 04:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by phetaroi

I doubt that Iwas even knows what a structured debate is. The structure he wants is something that we have seen with him time and time again -- basically where he tries control the discussion. I doubt that anyone who been here long is going to fall for that again.

We’ve done this same dance before, mr. shiny pants:

1. I offered to utilize the minimally structured debate format provided by debate.org

You ran off the dance floor with your arms folded, letting out loud sighs as you walked away.
Your excuse was that I might somehow rig the debate, giving myself an unfair advantage. How exactly could I accomplish that? Jack the website?

2. I offered to let you decide/devise the format of the debate; we’d play by your rules. My only condition was that the rules apply the same to both of us.

You ran off the dance floor again, this time drop-kicking your corsage into the bleachers. Your heavy sighs evolved into loud snorts and in your haste you tripped and ripped your dress.
Your excuse morphed into a complaint about not wanting to have anything to do with the likes of me. I’m a bad man and you don’t want to play with me anymore.

I really don’t understand why you think I have such power to rig any debate, no matter what the rules or format.

mensaguy · 10-15-2020, 04:54 PM

Knock it off. We aren't doing any debates on here.

pneuma · 10-15-2020, 04:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Accomplished_Failure

not sure if you'd mentioned it....

"According to the journal, Thorvaldsen and Hössjer not only failed to disclose their links to creationists (more on that in a second), but they actively hid their work’s adjacency to intelligent design by leaving that phrase out of their keywords until after the editing process was complete."

https://retractionwatch.com/2020/10/...n/#more-120616

https://www.reddit.com/r/DebateEvolu..._to_lowimpact/

What a load of crap. Do you think the reviewer are living under a rock? look at the references, if they failed to disclose their links they did so in plain sight.

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MysticPhD · 10-15-2020, 05:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pneuma

What a load of crap. Do you think the reviewer are living under a rock? look at the references, if they failed to disclose their links they did so in plain sight.
<snip>

They are not willing to be objective about this issue, pneuma. The bias and prejudice is too great to brook ANY compromise. They are not reasonable people, my friend, as is routinely displayed throughout this forum.

phetaroi · 10-15-2020, 05:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pneuma

What a load of crap. Do you think the reviewer are living under a rock? look at the references, if they failed to disclose their links they did so in plain sight.

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You're very good at listing things. How many of those sources have you actually read?