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Objective criteria will do. Personal experience will not do. The evidence must be observable, detectable, demonstrable, testable, repeatable, and verifiable by outside parties.
Here are some popular things that are not evidence:
personal testimony
scriptural references
dreams
visions
anecdotes
personal experience
perceived miracles and coincidences
appeals to authority (smart people believe it)
appeals to numbers holding belief (ad populum)
special pleading (evidence is located in inaccessible places using obscure modalities that need special “training” or “wisdom” to see. In other words: domain spoofing.
appeals to ignorance (“I can’t see any other explanation”, or “what else could explain it”)
You must not be familiar with the fact that many of those things you listed as "not evidence"...have been what's provided AS evidence (and rulings made on that evidence...even the penalty of death), in more cases than any other type of evidence, over the entire history of civilized humans.
There are many courts in this world, this very day...that will not rule on any other evidence than "eye-witnesses giving personal testimony"...even in cases such as rape.
THAT is how important and meaningful that type of evidence is.
Either you are ignorant of this...or pretending to be.
You must not be familiar with the fact that many of those things you listed as "not evidence"...have been what's provided AS evidence (and rulings made on that evidence...even the penalty of death), in more cases than any other type of evidence, over the entire history of civilized humans.
There are many courts in this world, this very day...that will not rule on any other evidence than "eye-witnesses giving personal testimony"...even in cases such as rape.
THAT is how important and meaningful that type of evidence is.
Either you are ignorant of this...or pretending to be.
yes, those are sensible, valid, reasonable points made. with clarity.
it is evident that the list given and the conclusions drawn from that list (in post 1099) are not rational or logical.
It does not reflect the best interests, health, balance, or well being of humanity, either individually or collectively.
It lacks common sense.
Last edited by Tzaphkiel; 01-05-2021 at 08:49 AM..
All of it is evidence of God until you can show that science has conclusively determined that it isn't or can't be. Since Science only collects evidence of what DOES exist, your concerns over the existence of God are specious. Sadly, science will never be able to make any such determination, so you are out of luck. You have to substantiate that what DOES exist can NOT possibly BE God otherwise it remains your BELIEF about God. Attacking those silly religious BELIEFS ABOUT God are of no value in solving this entirely empirical question and science is no help either.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TRANSPONDER
None of it is evidence for a god (in any meaningful and non - fiddled way) until the God -Claimant produces evidence that it is. This addresses the god -claim of any (meaningful (1) sort. Your attempt to drag in the irrelevance of religious dogmas or myths is either poor thinking or deliberate dishonesty (2) on your part.
(1) it has at least to have a mind, will and intent or it's just 'nature'.
(2) I always forget - where Faith -claims are involved, the Believer sees no dishonesty in fiddling facts and logic if it just supports what is 'known' to be True on Faith, anyway.
What do you mean by "in any meaningful and non - fiddled way," does it mean in a way that is meaningful to Arq??? When are you going to explain how the hell you KNOW that your 'nature; does NOT have a "mind, will, and intent?" You expect anyone to take your word for it???? That is the very definition of a BELIEF, NOT an established fact. What scientific measurement do we have for directly measuring "mind, will, and intent?" Is that what you mean when you say "the Believer sees no dishonesty in fiddling facts and logic if it just supports what is 'known' to be True on Faith, anyway." Is that what you are doing with your BELIEF, Arq, employing Faith?????
exactly ... when we determine reliability based on tran' "meaningful way" it starts to look like a faith claim. Theist do it all the time.
"no-fiddled way", does that mean when we say "we don't know so your wrong." fiddled way? or "it doesn't get us anywhere so we can't talk about it like that." non fiddled way?
So exactly how is his meaningful way and non fiddled compare to your meaningful and non fiddled? oh wait, we know how it compares that's why we had the great purge.
Agreed. It is beyond astounding to utter amazement and incredulity at the existence of such minds.
Either you and AA are purposely not addressing the key issue or you don't recognize it for what it is...
How do we determine what is valid evidence? What is the criteria that we might/should be able to agree upon?
Take again the Flat Earther for example. Someone who believes they know and understand something that the rest of us can't. Is it beyond astounding to utter amazement and incredulity that most people don't recognize their evidence as valid?
You really have to do better than push all this sort of rhetoric about "such minds" and better understand that it's not ego or agenda that causes the disagreement about the truth of these matters. It's all about establishing the validity of the evidence. I know you will agree that not all evidence is equal. In a court of law some evidence is not even deemed admissible.
I also know this is not a court of law, but if any of us was to serve as an impartial fair judge presiding over this "Evidence for soul and spirit" case, there would be no way to do so other than to fairly establish what makes for valid evidence. There is nothing astounding, amazing or incredulous about this simple recognition.
1. yes, for me, perceptions are evidence.
2. emotions and feelings are not the same as the human soul or spirit.
It's a good thing in a court of law, say if you were accused of murder, that perceptions would not be allowed as evidence. For rather obvious reasons...
"It's all in my head" has a completely different meaning today than it did for me 10 years ago. My doctors are finally agreeing with me. Let me just say that stress is real and a spirit killer.
Indeed it is. AKA a significant source of depression and other health ailments...
Perhaps another good example of something we didn't understand too well, and once upon a time even medical professionals deemed it "all in one's head." Then with better research, studies, tests, we have been able to establish proof that stress indeed causes serious health issues. To the point that no intelligent person debates this simple fact today.
If it doesn’t interface with reality in such a way that it can be detected by man, than it is not evidence. Evidence implies detection and demonstration. Prior to that, it is simply unknown. A thing that does not interface with reality is the same as something that does not exist. We should not believe such a thing, nor should we give it a care in the world. Since that is where we are, and where we will stay, until we cease to exist upon death.
Exactly. Given the common definition of evidence...
"the available body of facts or information indicating whether a belief or proposition is true or valid"
... we should be more careful what we call evidence and what is something else altogether. Call it a hunch. Call it personal feelings or experience. Call it speculation, intuition, what I want to believe regardless the evidence to the contrary. My personal belief regardless the lack of evidence that supports it...
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It is beyond astounding to utter amazement and incredulity at the existence of such minds.
