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I would suggest that it is you who does not understand prayer. It ALL happens in the consciousness without requiring any spoken words but the potential of more than a single consciousness seeking guidance, assurance, peace, cooperation, or whatever can create a positive ambiance. It also eliminates any particular religious association since atheists can just as easily participate or not without detection. Anyone objecting would be just an extreme zealot.
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Originally Posted by badlander
No it means sitting silent for no purpose at all at the beginning of a public meeting.
Disagreeing with you is a source of being an extreme zealot? Wow talk about an extreme zealot "agree with me or there is something wrong with you"
Can you link a peer-reviewed paper demonstrating your claim as a scientific fact rather than your opinion? If not then your claim of extreme zealots is one of extreme intolerance for differing opinions.
Extreme intolerance is objecting to a short silence that discriminates against no one just because you hate religion or God or any indication of reverence for life.
We've discussed this many times. In my experience, you're the one that really seems to lack understanding of what the Founding Fathers intended. They never intended for any form of religion to be removed from public life.
What 'the Founding Fathers intended' is a red herring of an argument.
The Founding Fathers were a very large group. They include those who drafted the Declaration of Independence, an irrelevant document when it comes to Constitutional law. They also include those who drafted the original Constitution itself, as well as the many hundreds of state legislators who then ratified that document. They include those who cobbled together the Bill of Rights (and the critical Establishment Clause of the First Amendment) and, again, the many hundreds of state legislators who ratified that block of amendments. Finally, they include those involved in further changes to the Constitution (such as the Fourteenth Amendment) that changed the effect of the Establishment Clause. There was some overlap in these groups but in total number these men who founded the nation and its constitutional directive and then shaped it in subsequent decades surely runs into four figures.
Most of these men left no record of their opinions on the Establishment Clause, so any claim as to what they intended is to make a claim with no basis. At best, we can know what some small portion of them, those that clearly recorded their relevant thoughts, held. Further, the phrase of what 'the Founding Fathers intended' suggests a uniformity of thought. But we know that the opinions and interpretations of the Founding Fathers often were contradictory. At best, on this topic we know various disparate viewpoints held by a minority of those who erected the relevant law underpinning the doctrine of the separation of church and state in the United States.
Claims to the contrary - that there is a known and consistent stance on this issue that was held across the decades and throughout this large group - is unequivocally false.
Strict government neutrality on religion/irreligion is good for everyone. It's good for the non-religious. It's good for religious people of minority faiths. It's even good for people of dominant religions, though some of them are blind to this obvious fact.
Nor did they intend for religion to be a part of public life. As I said in another post, are you good with a Muslim bringing out his prayer cloth, kneeling and bowing toward Mecca before a meeting? Are you good with a Buddhist, Hindu or pagan prayer before a meeting? Actually, I kinda would like to see that myself. Along with some chanting and bells. Now THAT would be cool.
Worship takes many forms, some of it performative, within sacred spaces. I doubt a muslim would want to bring his prayer rug to a public meeting or perform for you. But he may be able to say a blessing asking for guidance and success for the task being undertaken. Yeah, I am good with it.
Our annual town meetings are a big affair, often contentious, and we make important decisions about spending funds that will have long term consequences to the finances and the town. Yeah we can use some divine guidance if it is available. The meeting begins with a rabbi or minister from local institutions saying such a prayer.
No one is stopping you from praying on your own, however much you wish to. But your freedom ends where mine begins and not everyone is comfortable with listening to praying in public. Didn't Jesus say go into your closest and pray, and don't pray in public to be seen by men? Public prayers also don't "help" me as you say. I'd rather people keep their religion to themselves. I don't know one atheist who is against you praying. Not wanting to hear public prayers in no way violates human or civil rights either.
My freedom ends where yours begins? Why? We cannot both have freedoms simultaneously?
The OP is not about public prayer, not even sure what that is. It is about atheists who prayer schools and other publicly owned places such as at a council meeting.
Nor did they intend for religion to be a part of public life. As I said in another post, are you good with a Muslim bringing out his prayer cloth, kneeling and bowing toward Mecca before a meeting? Are you good with a Buddhist, Hindu or pagan prayer before a meeting? Actually, I kinda would like to see that myself. Along with some chanting and bells. Now THAT would be cool.
It didn't go over very well when I was sitting at a table with several others getting ready to eat and they had to do a christian prayer...and then I decided to give a sort of Buddhist blessing.
My freedom ends where yours begins? Why? We cannot both have freedoms simultaneously?
The OP is not about public prayer, not even sure what that is. It is about atheists who prayer schools and other publicly owned places such as at a council meeting.
Of course it is. It's in the very subject line. Did someone break into your house and type that in on your computer using your screen name?
HOA is an odd place I agree for prayer. I am not against prayer per se so it would not bother me as long as it is simple, neutral, and BRIEF so we can get on with the issue at hand. It is meetings that I hate. But the horror stories I have heard about HOA s, probably prayer might help, who knows. Anyway it is private property so I doubt the supreme court would have anything to say about that.
It wasn't neutral...it was about Jesus Christ.
I don't call 10 minutes brief.
It doesn't matter what the faith tradition is. I just use Christian fundamentalism as its most prominent example in this history and culture of this country.
And, once again, you either can't distinguish between prayer in a public space and using a civic instrument as a forum for prayers or you are intentionally trying to muddy the water between the two. The two are completely different arguments and it's dishonest of you to conflate the two.
Did you imagine the OP to be about prayer meeting in a civic building? Why would anyone do that?
It is about an invocation before beginning a meeting.
You may have to get your head out of Christian fundamentalism as the culture is changing.
Extreme intolerance is objecting to a short silence that discriminates against no one just because you hate religion or God or any indication of reverence for life.
Showing off WHAT???? It is silence!
Of course it is. It's in the very subject line. Did someone break into your house and type that in on your computer using your screen name?
Ok I am clarifying it. I never imagined it could be understood as a prayer meeting in the high school gym. good god.
I will see if the moderator would change the title.
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