German Christian Pacifists in WWII Have Important Lessons (bible, quote, doctrine)
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The nazi party killed/imprisoned anybody that disagreed.
Saying other Germans just accepted the political climate is short sighted and wrong to me. They were in survival mode.
That is why it is important to protect inalienable rights and freewill choices that do not impede on someone else's freewill.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Arach Angle
how do we tell when "violence" to "hold down a bully" from hurting the next victims should just be tagged "violence" and not be deployed.
That is a reasonable argument. Some people talk of "non-aggression" as in you can't be the aggressor, but you are allowed to defend yourself or others from an aggressor.
That could be a "slipper slope" though in the sense that some people have started "preventative" wars to prevent another from being an aggressor, which seems contradictory to me.
I sound like a fool I am sure to most, but if we all were taught pacifism, perhaps there would be less violence?
That is why it is important to protect inalienable rights and freewill choices that do not impede on someone else's freewill.
That is a reasonable argument. Some people talk of "non-aggression" as in you can't be the aggressor, but you are allowed to defend yourself or others from an aggressor.
That could be a "slipper slope" though in the sense that some people have started "preventative" wars to prevent another from being an aggressor, which seems contradictory to me.
I sound like a fool I am sure to most, but if we all were taught pacifism, perhaps there would be less violence?
Yeah, we all agree. But we are all not playing by the same rules ... there are a whirlwind of personal agendas here.
to binary thinkers and people that buy into "they are wrong, so lets side with everybody else just because we want to stop them." you are a fool. they are "woke"
"Awake" people understand the contradiction is a serous contradiction and we have to unpack what we are saying, try to stay focused on ourselves taking the next right step, hold ourselves to, at least, the standards we are judging "evil them" by.
It all gets back down to our base axioms. It usually takes about five "why did you say that" to get down to them. Usually when there is a disconnect something in the person life pops up and everything the person says can be linked back to it. addiction, abuse, mental illness, accident. To me far right and far left is mental illness, so take that for what its worth.
Quake, if you ever drop your belief in your biblegod, please, start with yourself. It wasn't them, it is you. I see so many very angry people that can't look in the mirror and say it all starts there.
Hanni, Christ was a Jew as were the apostles and the earliest Christians.
IMO a Christian is one who follows Christ.
.
That's always my point, none of you follow Christ, you follow a lawless pagan Christ that became the very worst enemies of Gods people.
The whole idea was to add Gentiles to the already saved nation of the chosen people, and that briefly took place when Gentiles converted to the religion of the already saved, chosen nation.
Gentiles converted to the same religion and thereby , they became the same people grafted and adopted into Israel to stand next to Jews as one family.
That was the good news, that Gentiles of Israel could become one people with Jews of Judah.
That is the entire point on the new covenant, God says there shall no longer be two nations and so he made a new covenant with the sole goal to make Israel and Judah one people when the Gentile converted to the same worship system SO THERE WOULD NO LONGER BE ANY DIFFERENCE BETWEEN JEW AND GENTILE.
Gentiles joined the Jews for about one hundred years, they literally became brothers in the same family.
What all these Christian's do today, they have historically been the very worst enemies to Gods chosen people and they had to become enemies when the Gentile reverted back to his paganism and his lawlessness about 100 years after Jesus died.
Gentiles were grafted and adopted into Israel and if one is honest, he will read the truth of Gentiles being in JUDAISM WHERE ALL OF THEM WERE ON FIRE TO BECOME JEWS, THEY ALL BECAME ONE WITH JEWS AND THAT IS THE WHOLE POINT OF THE COVENANT TO MAKE TWO PEOPLE, ONE PEOPLE.
Now the worst enemies to the nation of Israel is claiming to be Israel, all these CHRISTIAN'S FALSELY CLAIMING TO BE THE SAME AS THE FIRST CHRISTIANS WHO LOVED AND LIVED AS JEWS.
These Christian's have no part in the new covenant, and it isn't salvation coming, its judgement coming for what has been done to Gods chosen people.
The sheer insult of it all, as if the worst enemy to God and his people have some kind of inheritance related to Gods people.
Just the insult of it is horrendous, as if these enemies to Gods religion and his people have some kind of share into the new covenant only made for Gods people, it is almost too much.
Christian's parading around falsley claiming to have part in a holy spirit given in a Jewish Holy day, falsley claiming a Passover lamb while teaching against it.
Christian's falsley claiming to have replaced Gods people, and when they should be repenting and coming back to the religion of Messiah, they join the ever growing call of genocide against Gods people electing representatives calling for Israel's destruction because that is what their fathers have always done.
People proud to stand next to monsters like Martin Luther, so much as to be called by his name. If there ever was an AntiChrist, his name was Luther.
It is just insulting that the worst enemies of Israel think they have a part in the new covenant or any promise spoken to Israel when their fathers were murderrs of the saints.
You say," That was a long time ago "
Those devils rejected the Passover lamb for Easter out of sheer hate for the chosen people, and people continue to give their vile words authority by continuing in the same ways they invented against the chosen people, still giving murderers authority.
Yeah, we all agree. But we are all not playing by the same rules ... there are a whirlwind of personal agendas here.
to binary thinkers and people that buy into "they are wrong, so lets side with everybody else just because we want to stop them." you are a fool. they are "woke"
"Awake" people understand the contradiction is a serous contradiction and we have to unpack what we are saying, try to stay focused on ourselves taking the next right step, hold ourselves to, at least, the standards we are judging "evil them" by.
It all gets back down to our base axioms. It usually takes about five "why did you say that" to get down to them. Usually when there is a disconnect something in the person life pops up and everything the person says can be linked back to it. addiction, abuse, mental illness, accident. To me far right and far left is mental illness, so take that for what its worth.
Quake, if you ever drop your belief in your biblegod, please, start with yourself. It wasn't them, it is you. I see so many very angry people that can't look in the mirror and say it all starts there.
I would hate to see such a kind soul turned.
I at least "think" I am pretty moderate...I guess pacifism could be seen as an extreme form of something...
I don't think I am an angry person if that is what you are saying at the bottom there. I apologize if I come off that way. I think Jesus tells me to love others and not be angry.
Sister and brother Sophie and Hans Scholl were Christian pacifists living in Nazi Germany. As WWII broke out, they started the "White Rose" a non-violent resistance movement inside of Nazi Germany.
They would write pamphlets talking of the evils of violence and the violent acts committed by Nazi Germany against Jews, Slavic people, and political dissenters. A janitor caught them leaving pamphlets around the university that they attended. They were arrested, put on trial for treason for merely writing pacifist editorials of facts, convicted while not allowing to defend themselves and then beheaded by guillotine at age 21 for Sophie and age 24 for Hans.
As a Christian pacifist personally, it makes me nauseous just thinking about what happened to those fellow pacifists for speaking out.
Their lessons live on. A poll of Germans put Sophie and Hans as the 4th most important Germans of all time, and they finished 1st among younger voters.
I think it is important that we as a society, especially various religious organizations, focus on their lessons of things like:
1) pacifism or non-violence
2) not restricting people's freewill and inalienable rights
3) opposing heinous punishments
Two quotes by Sophie Scholl:
"Somebody, after all, had to make a start. What we wrote and said is also believed by many others. They just don't dare express themselves as we did."
"Such a fine, sunny day, and I have to go... What does my death matter, if through us, thousands of people are awakened and stirred to action?"
Even her Nazi executioners said that Sophie went bravely to her death, probably knowing that she was correct and through her love and faith in Jesus.
Quote by Hans Scholl:
"I knew what I took upon myself and I was prepared to lose my life by so doing."
Pacifism isn't morally admirable per se. Pacifism is a tactic, not an approach based on Scripture. MLK used pacifism effectively. Gandhi used pacifism effectively.
But those two used pacifism when opposing forces that had some kind of basic concept of human right and the respect for the individual.
The example you site is not admirable in the least. It's two people whose lives were snuffed out by barbarism. Their deaths had zero effect on the outcome of anything. Their struggle was only known to us after the shooting stopped. In the end, the only thing they provided us is an example of misplaced and fatal nobility.
Here's what put an end to the Nazis rule of terror and the holocaust, and it certainly wasn't pacifism. It was bombers, tanks, ships, and infantry. Had the United States, Great Britain, and Russia not vanquished Nazi Germany by dint of arms, Hans and Sophie Scholl would have just been two more of its anonymous victims. What's more, had Great Britain and France displayed a willingness to fight in 1936, 1936, 1937, and 1938 rather than their endless truckling to Adolph Hitler, there wouldn't have been a World War II and a Holocaust to begin with.
The real lesson? Pacifism is a pointless exercise in the face of evil that does not respect either life or the individual. Instead it becomes no more noble than suicide.
Pacifism isn't even scriptural. Christ does not support pacifism in his teachings. When he sends his apostles out into the world to evangelize, he tells them that if they do not possess a sword, they need to sell possessions in order to obtain one. So the principle of Christian self-defense is found in Christ's direct teaching.
I'll go one step further. Pacifism in the face of that kind of evil is a spiritual narcissism of sorts, a conceit. It allows the person who espouses it to say high-minded things while hiding behind those who actually suffer, bleed, and die to defeat evil.
Last edited by MinivanDriver; 06-25-2021 at 08:30 PM..
Pacifism isn't morally admirable per se. Pacifism is a tactic, not an approach based on Scripture. MLK used pacifism effectively. Gandhi used pacifism effectively.
But those two used pacifism when opposing forces that had some kind of basic concept of human right and the respect for the individual.
The example you site is not admirable in the least. It's two people whose lives were snuffed out by barbarism. Their deaths had zero effect on the outcome of anything. Their struggle was only known to us after the shooting stopped. In the end, the only thing they provided us is an example of misplaced and fatal nobility.
The Scholl siblings did use pacifism and their work did have an impact. Their writings were read by people during and after the war. Their writings were a threat to Nazism as it exposed its evils and made people think.
They risked their lives and then gave their lives to expose Nazi evils and lies. To me that is admirable.
Both African-Americans and the Indian people were met with violence at the hands of their oppressors. In fact, MLK was murdered in an assassination.
Also just FYI there are different levels of pacifism, some argue in favor of a "just war" to create a world of the no war in the future.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MinivanDriver
Here's what put an end to the Nazis rule of terror and the holocaust, and it certainly wasn't pacifism. It was bombers, tanks, ships, and infantry. Had the United States, Great Britain, and Russia not vanquished Nazi Germany by dint of arms, Hans and Sophie Scholl would have just been two more of its anonymous victims. What's more, had Great Britain and France displayed a willingness to fight in 1936, 1936, 1937, and 1938 rather than their endless truckling to Adolph Hitler, there wouldn't have been a World War II and a Holocaust to begin with.
The boldfaced part is playing what "if." Well "what if" the whole world over was taught pacifism?
Did WWII meet its objectives?
Stalin killing millions of civilians immediately after the war. The loss of democracy in eastern Europe. China's collapse into a totalitarian government shortly after the war. The US going from a non-interventionist country in the 1920s and 1930s into a country with hundreds of foreign military bases and pushing its military might around the world routinely that lasts to this very day.
What else did WWII give us? A Cold War that led to things like the Vietnam War and the Cuban Missile Crisis. Two atomic bombs dropped on Japan. Severe tensions over Germany - think Berlin for decades after the war. Arms races that waste money on military build up. The US military had been small before WWII and now it is too big I fear. WWII had us dehumanize the enemy...have you ever seen the propaganda portraying Japanese soldiers as less than humans, as monkeys?
General Eisenhower, whose mother was a Christian Pacifist, had to even give a speech about being wary of the growing industrial military complex due to the world that WWII created.
I respect WWII veterans commitment to a cause. I have a great grandfather who fought for the US and one Austrian one (who kind of fought for Germany and then married a French girl that he met occupying France), so I have WWII in my family tree. I also have a Great Grandfather who was a conscientious objector as a pacifist. I admire him as much if not more than the others.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MinivanDriver
The real lesson? Pacifism is a pointless exercise in the face of evil that does not respect either life or the individual. Instead it becomes no more noble than suicide.
Pacifism isn't even scriptural. Christ does not support pacifism in his teachings. When he sends his apostles out into the world to evangelize, he tells them that if they do not possess a sword, they need to sell possessions in order to obtain one. So the principle of Christian self-defense is found in Christ's direct teaching.
I'll go one step further. Pacifism in the face of that kind of evil is a spiritual narcissism of sorts, a conceit. It allows the person who espouses it to say high-minded things while hiding behind those who actually suffer, bleed, and die to defeat evil.
There is a spirit that is in each of us that is from God and it binds us together. You can't kill someone without hurting that connected spirit.
Yes, killing another life form might break that connection. So I look at how the system deals with killing. Well, that ends that. We can talk about killing another human for personal gain but that gets us into morals.
Would have doing nothing been any better? Is not stopping somebody like Hitler the best choice all the time?
I lean toward no, but I don't know. I do know that when we kill our children I hope its for a better cause than self-serving ideologies like anti-religion socialism and religious fascism.
The Scholl siblings did use pacifism and their work did have an impact. Their writings were read by people during and after the war. Their writings were a threat to Nazism as it exposed its evils and made people think.
They risked their lives and then gave their lives to expose Nazi evils and lies. To me that is admirable.
Both African-Americans and the Indian people were met with violence at the hands of their oppressors. In fact, MLK was murdered in an assassination.
Also just FYI there are different levels of pacifism, some argue in favor of a "just war" to create a world of the no war in the future.
The boldfaced part is playing what "if." Well "what if" the whole world over was taught pacifism?
Did WWII meet its objectives?
Stalin killing millions of civilians immediately after the war. The loss of democracy in eastern Europe. China's collapse into a totalitarian government shortly after the war. The US going from a non-interventionist country in the 1920s and 1930s into a country with hundreds of foreign military bases and pushing its military might around the world routinely that lasts to this very day.
What else did WWII give us? A Cold War that led to things like the Vietnam War and the Cuban Missile Crisis. Two atomic bombs dropped on Japan. Severe tensions over Germany - think Berlin for decades after the war. Arms races that waste money on military build up. The US military had been small before WWII and now it is too big I fear. WWII had us dehumanize the enemy...have you ever seen the propaganda portraying Japanese soldiers as less than humans, as monkeys?
General Eisenhower, whose mother was a Christian Pacifist, had to even give a speech about being wary of the growing industrial military complex due to the world that WWII created.
I respect WWII veterans commitment to a cause. I have a great grandfather who fought for the US and one Austrian one (who kind of fought for Germany and then married a French girl that he met occupying France), so I have WWII in my family tree. I also have a Great Grandfather who was a conscientious objector as a pacifist. I admire him as much if not more than the others.
There is a spirit that is in each of us that is from God and it binds us together. You can't kill someone without hurting that connected spirit.
Minivan is correct that in the immediate reality... "might is right".
But the idea that Pacifism is nothing but a tactic is a pretty cynical viewpoint. Pacifism essentially projects the "might is right" doctrine to it's logical conclusion and deduces that it is better not to fight at all than to fight until there is only one left standing.
And It is always interesting that the same people who claim that Jesus wasn't a "pacifist" are the same ones who tell us that he could have brought down armies of angels to keep himself from getting crucified...yet chose to allow it to happen anyway. I mean how much more "pacifist" can you get?
Minivan is correct that in the immediate reality... "might is right".
But the idea that Pacifism is nothing but a tactic is a pretty cynical viewpoint. Pacifism essentially projects the "might is right" doctrine to it's logical conclusion and deduces that it is better not to fight at all than to fight until there is only one left standing.
And It is always interesting that the same people who claim that Jesus wasn't a "pacifist" are the same ones who tell us that he could have brought down armies of angels to keep himself from getting crucified...yet chose to allow it to happen anyway. I mean how much more "pacifist" can you get?
It is a sad indicator of the continuing savagery and barbarity of humanity that might is needed to prevent what is properly called evil to dominate. The ubiquity of war as the go-to solution for transnational territorial and religious disputes is probative. The belief in an Armageddon that will end all evil is perhaps the most telling. Evil will not disappear until every single person stops being motivated by it at the expense of others (masking itself as self-interest).
That's always my point, none of you follow Christ, you follow a lawless pagan Christ that became the very worst enemies of Gods people.
The whole idea was to add Gentiles to the already saved nation of the chosen people, and that briefly took place when Gentiles converted to the religion of the already saved, chosen nation.
Gentiles converted to the same religion and thereby , they became the same people grafted and adopted into Israel to stand next to Jews as one family.
That was the good news, that Gentiles of Israel could become one people with Jews of Judah.
That is the entire point on the new covenant, God says there shall no longer be two nations and so he made a new covenant with the sole goal to make Israel and Judah one people when the Gentile converted to the same worship system SO THERE WOULD NO LONGER BE ANY DIFFERENCE BETWEEN JEW AND GENTILE.
Gentiles joined the Jews for about one hundred years, they literally became brothers in the same family.
What all these Christian's do today, they have historically been the very worst enemies to Gods chosen people and they had to become enemies when the Gentile reverted back to his paganism and his lawlessness about 100 years after Jesus died.
Gentiles were grafted and adopted into Israel and if one is honest, he will read the truth of Gentiles being in JUDAISM WHERE ALL OF THEM WERE ON FIRE TO BECOME JEWS, THEY ALL BECAME ONE WITH JEWS AND THAT IS THE WHOLE POINT OF THE COVENANT TO MAKE TWO PEOPLE, ONE PEOPLE.
Now the worst enemies to the nation of Israel is claiming to be Israel, all these CHRISTIAN'S FALSELY CLAIMING TO BE THE SAME AS THE FIRST CHRISTIANS WHO LOVED AND LIVED AS JEWS.
These Christian's have no part in the new covenant, and it isn't salvation coming, its judgement coming for what has been done to Gods chosen people.
The sheer insult of it all, as if the worst enemy to God and his people have some kind of inheritance related to Gods people.
Just the insult of it is horrendous, as if these enemies to Gods religion and his people have some kind of share into the new covenant only made for Gods people, it is almost too much.
Christian's parading around falsley claiming to have part in a holy spirit given in a Jewish Holy day, falsley claiming a Passover lamb while teaching against it.
Christian's falsley claiming to have replaced Gods people, and when they should be repenting and coming back to the religion of Messiah, they join the ever growing call of genocide against Gods people electing representatives calling for Israel's destruction because that is what their fathers have always done.
People proud to stand next to monsters like Martin Luther, so much as to be called by his name. If there ever was an AntiChrist, his name was Luther.
It is just insulting that the worst enemies of Israel think they have a part in the new covenant or any promise spoken to Israel when their fathers were murderrs of the saints.
You say," That was a long time ago "
Those devils rejected the Passover lamb for Easter out of sheer hate for the chosen people, and people continue to give their vile words authority by continuing in the same ways they invented against the chosen people, still giving murderers authority.
Not quite Hanni
God through the prophet Jeremiah said there would come a time he (God) would establish a new covenant
Jesus said the law and the prophets pointed to him and he had come to fulfill the covenant (Matthew)
Not only that but Jesus instituted the new covenant based on principles rather than laws written on stone (Luke)
Obviously God saw the need for a better covenant so why hold on to the old when Jesus fulfilled and established a new and better covenant.
"For since the Law has a shadow of the good things to come, but not the very substance of the things, it can never, by the same sacrifices that are continually offered year after year, make those who approach perfect."-Hebrews 10:1
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It is a sad indicator of the continuing savagery and barbarity of humanity that might is needed to prevent what is properly called evil to dominate. The ubiquity of war as the go-to solution for transnational territorial and religious disputes is probative. The belief in an Armageddon that will end all evil is perhaps the most telling. Evil will not disappear until every single person stops being motivated by it at the expense of others (masking itself as self-interest).
