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I'd rather have a chance at heaven than be turned into a robot, yes.
1) Dont create a world in which much or most of humanity will suffer endless torment in hell. Seems like a bad plan from the get go.
2) Annihilation. Those who don't qualify for heaven just cease to exist.
3) Karmic hell. A redemptive and purgative one. Your punishment is exactly proportional to the suffering you caused on Earth. This is the Jewish version, so God seems to have thought it up for one set of its believers . Maybe Christians need to go file a complaint with God
4) Win people in hell over with redemptive love. I thought redemptive love was supposed to be the hallmark of Christianity ? Love your enemies. God demands more of you than it does of Itself ?
No matter how you cut it, your view is that god is incapable of achieving its desired and stated goal. In the human world we call that failure.
1) Dont create a world in which much or most of humanity will suffer endless torment in hell. Seems like a bad plan from the get go.
It may or may not be true that "most of humanity will suffer endless torment in hell"; but the fact is that not a single person has to, as God has made salvation possible to all. Just repent and be baptized and follow Christ.
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Originally Posted by NatesDude
2) Annihilation. Those who don't qualify for heaven just cease to exist.
Yes, I flirted with this view for a time. For whatever reason, God does not prefer this. Apparently the human person was not made for annihilation. You contend that it would be better if it had. I couldn't possibly presume to make that judgment.
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Originally Posted by NatesDude
3) Karmic hell. A redemptive and purgative one. Your punishment is exactly proportional to the suffering you caused on Earth. This is the Jewish version, so God seems to have thought it up for one set of its believers . Maybe Christians need to go file a complaint with God
We do believe that in the Christian hell, that the punishment is exactly proportional to the gravity of one's sin. We can't possibly know the extent of damage our sins have caused in both its physical and spiritual aspect. Christians have received additional revelation that the Jews have rejected. We have the concept of purgatory, which could be a development/refining of their pre-Christian beliefs regarding the afterlife.
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Originally Posted by NatesDude
4) Win people in hell over with redemptive love. I thought redemptive love was supposed to be the hallmark of Christianity ?
What if the people in hell will not be won over? Is God to override/negate their free will, thereby fundamentally altering their nature, making them no longer human?
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Originally Posted by NatesDude
No matter how you cut it, your view is that god is incapable of achieving its desired and stated goal. In the human world we call that failure.
It may or may not be true that "most of humanity will suffer endless torment in hell"; but the fact is that not a single person has to, as God has made salvation possible to all. Just repent and be baptized and follow Christ.
Yes, I flirted with this view for a time. For whatever reason, God does not prefer this. Apparently the human person was not made for annihilation. You contend that it would be better if it had. I couldn't possibly presume to make that judgment.
We do believe that in the Christian hell, that the punishment is exactly proportional to the gravity of one's sin. We can't possibly know the extent of damage our sins have caused in both its physical and spiritual aspect. Christians have received additional revelation that the Jews have rejected. We have the concept of purgatory, which could be a development/refining of their pre-Christian beliefs regarding the afterlife.
What if the people in hell will not be won over? Is God to override/negate their free will, thereby fundamentally altering their nature, making them no longer human?
Wait...what is the "desired and stated goal"?
1 Timothy 2:3
3This is good, and pleases God our Savior, 4who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. 5For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus, 6who gave himself as a ransom for all people.
God either accomplishes what it wants, or it doesn’t . There are only 2 options
Whether God has made salvation available to all (not necessarily true but a moot point here) or not, according to most of Christianity people will go to hell. So again, sort of a bad plan .
As to whether annihilation is better than endless torment, I am amazed that you find yourself incapable of presuming which one would be worse. Its obvious.
3This is good, and pleases God our Savior, 4who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. 5For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus, 6who gave himself as a ransom for all people.
God either accomplishes what it wants, or it doesn’t . There are only 2 options
No, you're exhibiting too much black/white thinking here and failing to see any nuance. We say that God has a primary will and a secondary will and intention.
"The Apostle now explains why prayer for all men is pleasing and 'acceptable in the sight of God' (ver. 3), namely, because God desires all to be saved. According to His primary intention and antecedent will, God wishes the salvation of all men without exception; but man, by the misuse of his free will, has the mysterious power of changing God’s original plan for him, so to speak; and hence it happens that, when man freely chooses not to be saved, God has recourse, in our way of thinking and speaking, to a secondary intention and consequent will in man’s regard, according to which He also wishes that man shall not be saved. This is our poor way of explaining, as best we can, a profound mystery. But when all is said and done, it is certain that no one is saved except by the grace of God, and no one is lost except through his own fault (see on Rom 9:12 ff.). This text of St. Paul is a clear refutation of the heretical opinions of Calvin and Jansenius, the first of whom taught that, previously to all thought of demerit on man’s part, God predestined some men to hell; and the second of whom said that Christ did not merit salvation for all men, having died only for the predestined (see Conc. Trid., sess. VI, De justificatione, can. 173." ~ from Fr. Callan's Commentary on 1 Timothy 2
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Originally Posted by NatesDude
Whether God has made salvation available to all (not necessarily true but a moot point here) or not, according to most of Christianity people will go to hell. So again, sort of a bad plan .
As to whether annihilation is better than endless torment, I am amazed that you find yourself incapable of presuming which one would be worse. Its obvious.
But how can we even begin to speculate on whether heaven would even be possible if the human soul were capable of being annihilated? It seems to me that having an eternal soul is essential to being human. If we had a soul capable of being annihilated, would we be any higher than an animal?
God is not insecure. He does not punish anyone out of any sense of insecurity.
Punitive justice is a human construct born of our impotence to prevent or restore the damage wrought by evil. It is to soothe our wrath, vengeance, and insecurity in an attempt to prevent future occurrences as a deterrent. God's Divine justice is NOT impotent and is not based on wrath, vengeance, or insecurity.
Punitive justice is a human construct born of our impotence to prevent or restore the damage wrought by evil.
What Bible verse says that?
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It is to soothe our wrath, vengeance, and insecurity in an attempt to prevent future occurrences as a deterrent.
God's Divine justice is NOT impotent and is not based on wrath, vengeance, or insecurity.
I literally just said God does not judge based on insecurity. So when you ignore my statements and say this, it tells me that you don't actually read what's posted. So why should anyone pay attention to your nonsense?
No, you're exhibiting too much black/white thinking here and failing to see any nuance. We say that God has a primary will and a secondary will and intention.
"The Apostle now explains why prayer for all men is pleasing and 'acceptable in the sight of God' (ver. 3), namely, because God desires all to be saved. According to His primary intention and antecedent will, God wishes the salvation of all men without exception; but man, by the misuse of his free will, has the mysterious power of changing God’s original plan for him, so to speak; and hence it happens that, when man freely chooses not to be saved, God has recourse, in our way of thinking and speaking, to a secondary intention and consequent will in man’s regard, according to which He also wishes that man shall not be saved. This is our poor way of explaining, as best we can, a profound mystery. But when all is said and done, it is certain that no one is saved except by the grace of God, and no one is lost except through his own fault (see on Rom 9:12 ff.). This text of St. Paul is a clear refutation of the heretical opinions of Calvin and Jansenius, the first of whom taught that, previously to all thought of demerit on man’s part, God predestined some men to hell; and the second of whom said that Christ did not merit salvation for all men, having died only for the predestined (see Conc. Trid., sess. VI, De justificatione, can. 173." ~ from Fr. Callan's Commentary on 1 Timothy 2
It is black and white . It’s either/or. Either God achieves Its goal or it doesn’t . Again, all the commentaries you can provide are just excuse making , nothing more . They don’t change the reality that God doesn’t accomplish what It set out to do .
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But how can we even begin to speculate on whether heaven would even be possible if the human soul were capable of being annihilated? It seems to me that having an eternal soul is essential to being human. If we had a soul capable of being annihilated, would we be any higher than an animal?
You are merely throwing stuff against the wall now and hoping something sticks . There is no basis at all for this speculation.
It has nothing to do with power. Sure, God could restore the fallen angels or the reprobate humans; but in doing so He would simultaneously annihilate the angelic and human races as it would require the negation of free will.
Logically if your god is all knowing, free will can not exist. If it knows what you are going to do, you can not choose to do something else.
Logically if your god is all knowing, free will can not exist. If it knows what you are going to do, you can not choose to do something else.
Not necessarily. Knowing the future would not equate removing free will . A time traveling being might know what I will do in a year, but not affect my choice in the matter until I make it .
A God could know the outcome of everything without affecting the choices along the way .
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