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Should I get into specifics? I doubt what I'm talking about is foreign to anyone who has been in the company of someone who wants to draw attention to who they are, what they are, what they believe. This doesn't apply to all Jewish people like I noted before. You would hardly know some of the Jewish people I know to be Jewish, because they are not the sort of people who are self-centered like that. A self-centeredness that can easily be seen in people who are not Jewish too!
Take for example sports fans (like me). Some sports fans can hardly do anything without bringing up sports, tell you who their favorite team is even if you didn't ask. Even if you are not interested. To the point of painting their face with their team colors. Other sports fans are not all about sports or their favorite team. Same sort of thing. Nothing more and nothing less.
Take as another example people who can hardly keep from letting you know they are Christian. "Bible thumpers" as they are sometimes called. Also not flattering, but we all know who I'm talking about. For them, it's all about their religion, and if you are with them, you're going to know it.
For those who tend to be a bit "heavy" when it comes to this sort of thing, well of course they will take offense. Why? Because they know I'm describing them. Others who know exactly what I'm referring to are perhaps more likely to ask questions like you have done. Rather than be offended.
Does it bother me that people paint their face with their favorite team colors? Not really generally speaking, but I can't deny there comes a point when people tend to overdo and impose their self-centeredness in ways that don't really fit with the circumstances. "Uncalled for" as some might put it.
Reminds me of the threads about imposing prayer on people who are not really there for purposes of prayer. Same sort of thing. I don't lose sleep over it, but I prefer people who don't impose themselves on others in these ways. Again more inclusive rather than exclusive. That's all.
I know what you’re alluding to. I guess my question is, aside from people who are trying to insist that you abide by their subjective norms (which, outside of Israel, is a very un-Jewish thing to do), what about this offends you?
The sports example is an interesting one, and I’m glad you brought it up. I have zero interest in organized sports. Some of my friends like organized sports, but, of course, we talk about other things. As for people who are totally sports-obsessed, while I’m unlikely to connect with them on a personal level the mere fact that they’re sports fanatics doesn’t bother or offend me. They can do their thing, and I can do mine. I can certainly understand that if someone just goes on and on about being Jewish and is basically a one-trick ethnoreligious pony (and I grant you these people exist), you might not jive with them on a personal level. I probably wouldn’t either. I guess it’s just the idea of being bothered as opposed to being uninterested, which is partly a matter of semantics, where I get slightly hung-up.
Identity is a funny thing. Sometimes I do make it a point to mention that I’m Jewish. Other times, I make a conscious decision not to, and not necessarily because I fear hostility. There’s no inherent rhyme or reason, as is the case with many human interactions. Here’s an example: None of my neighbors are Jewish, which is fine. I have no reason to believe that (and, in fact, would be shocked if) they are anti-Semitic. I’ve just seen no reason to bring it up, even though there have been multiple occasions where it would not be inappropriate, like being asked about my child’s daycare, which is a nearby Synagogue, and being wished a “Merry Christmas” (to which I’ll just say “Merry Christmas to you, too”). Perhaps it’s because we have a cordial but casual, and somewhat infrequent, level of interaction.
As for asking questions rather than assuming bad intentions, you may recall we went through that rigmarole ourselves (for which I apologized but privately and publicly), so I know that your words on this topic sometimes have a more blunt impact than intended.
I know what you’re alluding to. I guess my question is, aside from people who are trying to insist that you abide by their subjective norms (which, outside of Israel, is a very un-Jewish thing to do), what about this offends you?
The sports example is an interesting one, and I’m glad you brought it up. I have zero interest in organized sports. Some of my friends like organized sports, but, of course, we talk about other things. As for people who are totally sports-obsessed, while I’m unlikely to connect with them on a personal level the mere fact that they’re sports fanatics doesn’t bother or offend me. They can do their thing, and I can do mine. I can certainly understand that if someone just goes on and on about being Jewish and is basically a one-trick ethnoreligious pony (and I grant you these people exist), you might not jive with them on a personal level. I probably wouldn’t either. I guess it’s just the idea of being bothered as opposed to being uninterested, which is partly a matter of semantics, where I get slightly hung-up.
Identity is a funny thing. Sometimes I do make it a point to mention that I’m Jewish. Other times, I make a conscious decision not to, and not necessarily because I fear hostility. There’s no inherent rhyme or reason, as is the case with many human interactions. Here’s an example: None of my neighbors are Jewish, which is fine. I have no reason to believe that (and, in fact, would be shocked if) they are anti-Semitic. I’ve just seen no reason to bring it up, even though there have been multiple occasions where it would not be inappropriate, like being asked about my child’s daycare, which is a nearby Synagogue, and being wished a “Merry Christmas” (to which I’ll just say “Merry Christmas to you, too”). Perhaps it’s because we have a cordial but casual, and somewhat infrequent, level of interaction.
As for asking questions rather than assuming bad intentions, you may recall we went through that rigmarole ourselves (for which I apologized but privately and publicly), so I know that your words on this topic sometimes have a more blunt impact than intended.
Though I appreciate your approach here, I can't help but feel you tend to "put words in my mouth." I described what is off-putting to me. I'm not sure that's the same thing as being offended...
People are not insisting I abide by their subjective norms either. I'm simply talking about a kind of self-centeredness that some people exude that tends to put me off. Not just me either. People who are "heavy" in these ways generally turn other people off in the same way. Other people who are not self-centered in the same way they are of course. With others who are wearing the same team colors on their face, they are "in their element!" Happy as clams!
I am only bothered when they spill into my lane, and in particular in this forum, this "heaviness" tends to find it's way into these threads in ways that don't really occur in my life outside this forum. That said, I have had personal experiences with people as previously described that I consider inappropriate. In some cases to the point of annoying. For the most part, however, it's just a case of thinking less of those kinds of people. Hardly anything more or less than that.
Your Merry Christmas example is another good one. I'm not a Christian but when someone says Merry Christmas to me, I don't make a point of explaining I'm not Christian. I say Merry Christmas back without thinking otherwise.
Others will make a point of explaining they are not Christian however. Why? You tell me...
I suppose you describing my comment as a "blurt" is somehow respectful far as you are concerned, but that blurt about "enough already" is about as thoughtful and appropriate a comment I can think to post and reiterate as often as seems necessary. A blurt for you of course. Enough already far as I'm concerned!PS: Does the title of this thread mean this thread is about Judaism? Even if it is, does the subject of Judaism not allow any comments other than complimentary toward Jewish people and/or Judaism?
if someone anyone insists on making negative comments about black people, and justifies and defends their right to make negative comments about black people then that identifies them as a bigot.
talking about an identified behavior, here is straightforward definition:
bigot "a person who is obstinately or unreasonably attached to a belief, opinion, or faction, especially one who is prejudiced against or antagonistic toward a person or people on the basis of their membership of a particular group."
if someone anyone insists on making negative comments about black people, and justifies and defends their right to make negative comments about black people then that identifies them as a bigot.
talking about an identified behavior, here is straightforward definition:
bigot
"a person who is obstinately or unreasonably attached to a belief, opinion, or faction, especially one who is prejudiced against or antagonistic toward a person or people on the basis of their membership of a particular group."
I agree, and because I agree I make a very specific point about describing SOME people in the way I have. Specifically to distinguish those people from all others in the group. I have also had personal experience, friends, who are black for example. I can very honestly describe those people as well. Some good, some not so good, but either way I'm simply being honest no matter who it may offend or who might otherwise have known the same experiences. The same kinds of people.
Far as I'm concerned, just like no one is above the law, no one is above criticism, and I invite anyone to address my criticisms in whatever way they like. I try to be honest and appropriate, though I know my observations might "rub some people the wrong way" (for obvious reasons).
That's not being a bigot of course, but your behavior when it comes to unfounded accusations like this one are your thing. That's a fair and honest criticism I have about you too. Sorry you don't like it, but as they say...
if someone anyone insists on making negative comments about black people, and justifies and defends their right to make negative comments about black people then that identifies them as a bigot.
talking about an identified behavior, here is straightforward definition:
bigot "a person who is obstinately or unreasonably attached to a belief, opinion, or faction, especially one who is prejudiced against or antagonistic toward a person or people on the basis of their membership of a particular group."
SOME black people seem to wrap their whole identity around being black. OTHERS just seem to want to be people. To be treated with respect, regardless the color of their skin.
I prefer the latter over the former. This too is not to be a bigot. (For those who need these basic lessons when it comes to this sort of thing).
if someone anyone insists on making negative comments about black people, and justifies and defends their right to make negative comments about black people then that identifies them as a bigot.
talking about an identified behavior, here is straightforward definition:
bigot "a person who is obstinately or unreasonably attached to a belief, opinion, or faction, especially one who is prejudiced against or antagonistic toward a person or people on the basis of their membership of a particular group."
Where in this thread -- which post # -- did someone make a negative comment about Black people?
Though I appreciate your approach here, I can't help but feel you tend to "put words in my mouth." I described what is off-putting to me. I'm not sure that's the same thing as being offended...
People are not insisting I abide by their subjective norms either. I'm simply talking about a kind of self-centeredness that some people exude that tends to put me off. Not just me either. People who are "heavy" in these ways generally turn other people off in the same way. Other people who are not self-centered in the same way they are of course. With others who are wearing the same team colors on their face, they are "in their element!" Happy as clams!
I am only bothered when they spill into my lane, and in particular in this forum, this "heaviness" tends to find it's way into these threads in ways that don't really occur in my life outside this forum. That said, I have had personal experiences with people as previously described that I consider inappropriate. In some cases to the point of annoying. For the most part, however, it's just a case of thinking less of those kinds of people. Hardly anything more or less than that.
Your Merry Christmas example is another good one. I'm not a Christian but when someone says Merry Christmas to me, I don't make a point of explaining I'm not Christian. I say Merry Christmas back without thinking otherwise.
Others will make a point of explaining they are not Christian however. Why? You tell me...
I’m not trying to put words in your mouth at all. If I used the wrong synonym or paraphrasing, I apologize.
Going back to the Christmas example, if I’m having a higher-stakes social interaction, I might take the time to mention being Jewish—not because I’m offended by what they’ve said, but because it’s an important part of getting to know me better (and I just mean me specifically). And it’s important because being Jewish is the most important aspect of my identity. It’s not the only aspect of my identity. Far from it. But it is essential to being me. Is the idea of that off-putting to you? I’m not asking that accusatorially. With no disrespect intended, your answer to that question matters to me as much as my opinion on the orientation of your identity matters to you. I’m just curious for the purposes of this discussion.
I’m not trying to put words in your mouth at all. If I used the wrong synonym or paraphrasing, I apologize.
Going back to the Christmas example, if I’m having a higher-stakes social interaction, I might take the time to mention being Jewish—not because I’m offended by what they’ve said, but because it’s an important part of getting to know me better (and I just mean me specifically). And it’s important because being Jewish is the most important aspect of my identity. It’s not the only aspect of my identity. Far from it. But it is essential to being me. Is the idea of that off-putting to you? I’m not asking that accusatorially. With no disrespect intended, your answer to that question matters to me as much as my opinion on the orientation of your identity matters to you. I’m just curious for the purposes of this discussion.
I've got to sign off now, and no worries, but generally speaking it's best to quote verbatim rather than use synonyms or paraphrase. You don't seem to be trying to misrepresent my comments, but I've had SOME people resort to synonyms and paraphrasing in an obvious effort to misrepresent my comments and/or thoughts. Horribly.
Also, I'm not really referring to you personally but other people who come to my mind that have acted in these ways that were off-putting far as I'm concerned. I'm not sure what a "higher-stakes social interaction" might be, but I'm hard pressed to think of reasons I might make a point of expressing who I am, what I think or believe in some of these ways unless pressed to do so.
I have a hard time relating to being Jewish as the most important aspect of your identity, and I can't really say whether you acting accordingly would be off-putting to me. I can't relate, because I can't think of anything about me, heritage, race, skin color, beliefs that are the most important aspect of my identity. I suppose being a man is an important part of my identity, but I don't make a point of expressing my masculinity to others. Not purposely anyway.
I can only put it this way. If we want to be friends or enjoy one another's company, I'm not sure how you being Jewish would enhance or diminish that experience. That would depend on the ways you would express yourself along those lines. The way you being Jewish would affect that experience.
Hardly different from someone who is a sports fanatic and wants to be a friend of mine. If the experience is going to be all about sports, or too much about sports, then I'd say the experience is not going to be a good one or long lasting. Not for me anyway.
Also, I'm not really referring to you personally but other people who come to my mind that have acted in these ways that were off-putting far as I'm concerned. I'm not sure what a "higher-stakes social interaction" might be, but I'm hard pressed to think of reasons I might make a point of expressing who I am, what I think or believe in some of these ways unless pressed to do so.
You could be referring to me personally, and that would be just fine. I’m just curious to know more about the aspects you find off-putting.
By higher-stakes interaction, I just mean an interaction with someone with whom I have, or want to have, a deeper personal relationship beyond fleeting, surface-level social pleasantries.
Quote:
Originally Posted by LearnMe
I have a hard time relating to being Jewish as the most important aspect of your identity, and I can't really say whether you acting accordingly would be off-putting to me. I can't relate, because I can't think of anything about me, heritage, race, skin color, beliefs that are the most important aspect of my identity. I suppose being a man is an important part of my identity, but I don't make a point of expressing my masculinity to others. Not purposely anyway.
I think of it as the base of a pyramid. It’s an important foundation, but it doesn’t take up the entire edifice. I’m a father, a husband, a lawyer, a golfer, a reader, a writer, and a mid-century modern architectural enthusiast, among many other things. Certainly, my being Jewish influences my approach towards those other aspects of my identity, since it is the lens through which I see the world. My wife couldn’t care less about her background and identity as a lapsed Catholic Euro-mutt, but we get along just fine. I think.
Quote:
Originally Posted by LearnMe
I can only put it this way. If we want to be friends or enjoy one another's company, I'm not sure how you being Jewish would enhance or diminish that experience. That would depend on the ways you would express yourself along those lines. The way you being Jewish would affect that experience.
Nor am I trying to suggest that others should derive utility from my identity. It’s just part of what makes me me.
Quote:
Originally Posted by LearnMe
Fair?
Cheers and a very good weekend to you and yours!
PS: Go Gonzaga!
Certainly. Thanks again for sharing. You have a great weekend as well.
And best of luck to Gonzaga. To paraphrase a great Quantum Presbyterian: abortions for some; miniature American flags (or NCAA brackets) for others!
So how could they stop using a power if they did not have that power in the first place? That the Jews stopped doing something around 30 AD does not mean the Romans stopped them.
I didn't say that the Romans stopped them. I said that they did not have the power to do it (and IIRC, I mentioned that it had nothing to do with the Romans)
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