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Yes of course. Everyone is responsible for their own actions. I think western law would mostly support that in most cases.
However it's not always so clear cut. Fear for example can play a big part. Particularly in the middle east as you state in your example, women covering up is largely not a choice and you can get into big trouble for not doing so.
I would mostly agree with what you said except I would not use the word 'always'.
Every situation is dependent on a multitude of factors. Sometimes choice is removed.
And, historically, it has often been religious forces that have removed that choice.
Just this past weekend, one of my former students, now ager 30, got in touch with me via the computer, as he often does. He has been going through a rough several months because of the turmoil in his family and his fiance's family over their engagement, and they had to separate, probably permanently. Guess what it's based on. His family is Indian-Catholic; her family is Muslim. Two fine young people, both highly educated, young professionals, separated because of religious-based principles.
No, but in the specific case of posters like L8, we absolutely do know that the shunning took place because of religion. We know from her first-hand experience, and we know that's a common practice dictated by the Watchtower. It is one of their principles that their followers must dissociate themselves from family members who do not adhere to the faith.
I am a mother, so it is hard not to judge another mother rejecting her child in favor of a group of old men telling you that you must do so, especially when we have heard the pain that it has caused. L8's in her 50s, so it is likely she may never see her mother again, and I think that's sad. It's very easy to point fingers and say "don't judge" because of "Karmic Order" or "Jesus Said So" or whatever, but we all do it because we are human. It's good to be mindful of it, yes, but we all do it.
I can't imagine. This is more alien to me than perhaps anything else. I cannot imagine shunning your own children. I've just settled 2 out of 3 of mine at university. Leaving them behind at college is easily one of the hardest things I've ever done in my life and i'll see them again in a few weeks. My kids are everything to me. The idea of casting them aside. No. I just can't even contemplate it at all.
Edit.
This conversation reminded me of Shirley Phelps pain at her children leaving the WB church. And yet she is so beyond embedded that she has no way to resolve it. In many ways she herself is a victim of her own beliefs. Very, very sad.
Yes of course. Everyone is responsible for their own actions. I think western law would mostly support that in most cases.
However it's not always so clear cut. Fear for example can play a big part. Particularly in the middle east as you state in your example, women covering up is largely not a choice and you can get into big trouble for not doing so.
I would mostly agree with what you said except I would not use the word 'always'.
Every situation is dependent on a multitude of factors. Sometimes choice is removed.
My point is of course about when we are free to act without fear, which is how most of us here are, in normal course of things, we own our actions, atheists or non-atheists. Religious principles do not drive action. If it did there will be no conflict.
Many muslim women choose to cover up BTW. They are broadcasting, high tech industries, are stylish and in heels, and cover their har in free societies, such as US. All of thevWest in not freeveither. The French banned women wearing hijab, i dont know if that is still in force, the French are so ornery anyway. That is oppression too, not freedom.
In the case of JW families that have disowned their children, the parents chose their belonging to a community over the safety of their children. I am not familiar enough with the JW to know if their version of the Bible instructs them to do this or is it the condition of the membership. In any case abandoning children, even not your own, for ANY reason just goes against all sense of decency. If the membership board is demanding this, they own the action.
And there is the sad fact that there are just crappy parents, who molest, kill, abandon, and abuse their children, no principles at all, religion or otherwise.
My point is of course about when we are free to act without fear, which is how most of us here are, in normal course of things, we own our actions, atheists or non-atheists. .
Within a westernized society, mostly yes.
Within a middle eastern Muslim society, largely no.
You are viewing this from a very westernized American standpoint. 'The normal course of things' depends on where you live in the world.
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Religious principles do not drive action. If it did there will be no conflict.
Yes they do.
Many religious groups dictate how to dress and how to behave.
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Many muslim women choose to cover up BTW.
Yes they do. Because that's what they have been taught is right
If they were raised in different culture, they would have a different choice.
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They are broadcasting, high tech industries, are stylish and in heels, and cover their har in free societies, such as US. All of thevWest in not freeveither. The French banned women wearing hijab, i dont know if that is still in force, the French are so ornery anyway. That is oppression too, not freedom.
In the case of JW families that have disowned their children, the parents chose their belonging to a community over the safety of their children. I am not familiar enough with the JW to know if their version of the Bible instructs them to do this or is it the condition of the membership. In any case abandoning children, even not your own, for ANY reason just goes against all sense of decency. If the membership board is demanding this, they own the action. And there is the sad fact that there are just crappy parents, who molest, kill, abandon, and abuse their children, no principles at all, religion or otherwise]
I can't imagine. This is more alien to me than perhaps anything else. I cannot imagine shunning your own children. I've just settled 2 out of 3 of mine at university. Leaving them behind at college is easily one of the hardest things I've ever done in my life and i'll see them again in a few weeks. My kids are everything to me. The idea of casting them aside. No. I just can't even contemplate it at all.
Edit.
This conversation reminded me of Shirley Phelps pain at her children leaving the WB church. And yet she is so beyond embedded that she has no way to resolve it. In many ways she herself is a victim of her own beliefs. Very, very sad.
You know what it sorta reminds me of -- immature children at school or on the playground who can be very cruel and will sometimes shun another child.
Except there is no love in that example.
Shirley Phelps obviously deeply loves her children but is torn between her children and her religion and sadly for her, she is in so deep, that her religion won.
British documentary maker Louis Theroux visited the Westboro Baptist church several times over many years. From the UK, we virtually watched those kids grow up in that family. Initially the family were very united and the kids were very much all in on the doctrine. Gradually over the years doubts crept in and little by little, many of the kids left, not just Shirley's kids but many other family members kids. You would think at some point the adults would consider if they had been doing something wrong. I guess once you have shown the world how serious you are, and devoted your life to it, there's no turning back.
Within a westernized society, mostly yes.
Within a middle eastern Muslim society, largely no.
You are viewing this from a very westernized American standpoint. 'The normal course of things' depends on where you live in the world.
Yes they do.
Many religious groups dictate how to dress and how to behave.
Yes they do. Because that's what they have been taught is right
If they were raised in different culture, they would have a different choice.
Yes this is true
When I say we own our action, what I mean is we own the consequences of the action. I do not mean freedom to act, which I think is a very different issue. The JWs shunning members definitely have the freedom to act, and they choose to follow membership rules. As I said I don't know if these are their religious text rules, or the rules of the board to keep the control over them. I believe it is the latter.
When you lack the freedom to act, of course that is a very different conversation.
It is a mistaken western centrist belief to think that the rest of the world lives without freedom. Freedom can be defined in many ways, as can the lack of it. I mean we, American women, just got our rights and autonomy over own bodies, REVOKED. How free are we? The Women's Equal Rights amendment never got ratified. We are yet to elect a woman as President.
Muslim women raised as Americans choose to cover their hair. If they can make decisions on what career they will pursue, wear make up and western clothes, they certainly have the choice to wear head covering or not. They choose to wear it. And there are many reasons why they do, sometimes it is to make a political statement. Women who can make political statement are not oppressed!
Any way we are getting off topic as this is not about Muslim women and head covering!
I can't imagine. This is more alien to me than perhaps anything else. I cannot imagine shunning your own children. I've just settled 2 out of 3 of mine at university. Leaving them behind at college is easily one of the hardest things I've ever done in my life and i'll see them again in a few weeks. My kids are everything to me. The idea of casting them aside. No. I just can't even contemplate it at all.
Just to flip the script, have you considered the phenomenon of children shunning their parents? That happens too. Raise them with love and laughter, be attentive and involved and present and available, and they gaslight you that you never did anything for them and they can't stand the sight of you. I have no clue to be honest if any of this is religiously motivated -- I certainly know cases where it's not -- and it is often at least partly a result of a fundamental personality difference between parent and child. But there is actually a big underground of shattered parents who are unwillingly estranged from one or more of their adult children, despite loving them very much. It is underground because of the stigma attached to it and the pain of discussing or explaining it to people.
One thing's for sure, there's no shortage of pain in the world ...
Just to flip the script, have you considered the phenomenon of children shunning their parents? That happens too. Raise them with love and laughter, be attentive and involved and present and available, and they gaslight you that you never did anything for them and they can't stand the sight of you. I have no clue to be honest if any of this is religiously motivated -- I certainly know cases where it's not -- and it is often at least partly a result of a fundamental personality difference between parent and child. But there is actually a big underground of shattered parents who are unwillingly estranged from one or more of their adult children, despite loving them very much. It is underground because of the stigma attached to it and the pain of discussing or explaining it to people.
...
I do think that's a little different, though. I think it was well-stated in "Guess Who's Coming To Dinner" when the Sydney Poitier character is having the confrontation wit his father:
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