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Yes, you're right about Justin martyr. I got him mixed up with Origen attributing the four gospels to Matthew Mark Luke and John.
But let's talk about o' Justin Martyr. What exactly did he mean by"when we talk about Jesus we don't say anything different from what you say about Zeus and Hercules"?
It's been said before about...oh..I dunno...about a ZILLION times before, that you have to read what's BEFORE you're quoting, and what's AFTER you're quoting, in order to get the proper context.
I mean, seriously, trill. There's quotes from HITLER on the internet, that, if taken out of context, could make him sound like an angel.
So, if you want to know what Martyr meant by what you quoted, ya gotta read ALL of what he wrote.
I'm sure that by the thousands of posts you've written here, I could probably make a pretty good case for seeking Christianity as a "good" thing.
Context is everything. Too bad you don't recognize that...
Mink, I've extended the invitation to I don't know how may Christians to debate me on the issues. Now I know you have a law background and it's only fair to tell you that I have a law background too. So I know when you're playing lawyer, and by the way, you're cute when you have your Perry Mason digs on. So when I see you leave the post with a question
You don't want to debate. You want to state what you want to say, and have everyone agree with it.
I don't see you as having a background in law. Maybe law enforcement. But that's not the same thing as law.
Sorry sweetie, but I don't look at a client, hear SOME of the facts, and think "GUILTY" in my mind, like you seem to do. I've been able to turn a lawyer's head before, and they didn't like that, because of their own ego. Get the hint.
You think you can do a better job than God? Well then, you must have more knowledge than God...which obviously, you don't.
Y'all seem to think that you know better than God because of the knowledge you have. How many hairs are on my head right now, thrill? Do YOU know? Do I even know? What REALLY happened when this universe was formed? Why does it seem that so much of life is so exact?
Do you REALLY believe, that life...in general... is some "accident"? That we're supposed to live, procreate and DIE...and that's IT?
For what purpose?
No. Something MORE is going on.
Quote:
I know you're in law mode because of course that's how lot of attorney's love to s/tten anything wrong. Show me where I have.
But let's look at the tenor of your post.
You catch me in a very minor mistake of attributing a line to the wrong church father. That's like you inadvertently quoting John 3:16 and saying Luke said it. No big deal. But ever the lawyer, you're going to seize on that tiny teensy little slip and milk it for everything it's worth, trying to call into question everything I've ever said about Jesus being mythical, "Wow, Thrill, gigantic goof--mistaking Justin for Origen. Can we really trust anything about Jesus you have to say now????????"
As if you haven't done the same thing. My goodness...I've seen you take a simple mistake, and RUN with it. "See how deceptive Christians are?????" So, don't even GO there, thrill...
I've seen worse from you, thrill...
Quote:
Pure Perry Mason.
At least Perry was about the truth...He did his research, which is more than I can say about YOU...
Quote:
So I extend to you the same offer I extended to .sparrow and Rob4JC and BaptistFundie and Tzaphkiel andThoreau and to a few other Christians in here:
Choose any of the 20 points in the link about good reasons abandoning Christianity and let's discuss them. I'll tell you exactly which points motivated me to give up Christianity and we can have a pleasant discussion.
MOST of those "20 points" are emotionally charged; not factually charged.
You don't want to debate. You want to state what you want to say, and have everyone agree with it.
I don't see you as having a background in law. Maybe law enforcement. But that's not the same thing as law.
Sorry sweetie, but I don't look at a client, hear SOME of the facts, and think "GUILTY" in my mind, like you seem to do. I've been able to turn a lawyer's head before, and they didn't like that, because of their own ego. Get the hint.
You think you can do a better job than God? Well then, you must have more knowledge than God...which obviously, you don't.
Y'all seem to think that you know better than God because of the knowledge you have. How many hairs are on my head right now, thrill? Do YOU know? Do I even know? What REALLY happened when this universe was formed? Why does it seem that so much of life is so exact?
Do you REALLY believe, that life...in general... is some "accident"? That we're supposed to live, procreate and DIE...and that's IT?
For what purpose?
No. Something MORE is going on.
As if you haven't done the same thing. My goodness...I've seen you take a simple mistake, and RUN with it. "See how deceptive Christians are?????" So, don't even GO there, thrill...
I've seen worse from you, thrill...
At least Perry was about the truth...He did his research, which is more than I can say about YOU...
MOST of those "20 points" are emotionally charged; not factually charged.
Come back when you have some actual facts.
K?
You're all over the place on this one, Mink. Check out the new thread. We can have a more organized debate over there.
Do you REALLY believe, that life...in general... is some "accident"? That we're supposed to live, procreate and DIE...and that's IT?
For what purpose?
Why should there be a purpose?
Logically there was either absolutely nothing, or an eternal something. If there was absolutely nothing (if that is even possible), then there were no rules to say how absolutely nothing behaves (including the something from nothing rule). The other option, an eternal something also requires no purpose (or god), it is a logical necessity.
And if a god did give us purpose, what is the purpose of this god? If a god does not require a purpose to exist, why should existence itself?
You're all over the place on this one, Mink. Check out the new thread. We can have a more organized debate over there.
The new thread is closed. May I follow up with a reply to you in this thread?
You said: "The profession of faith that you can relate with Jesus is NOT a historic fact."
I am not professing a faith. I am testifying to a living relationship. Please let me explain.
Your take on Jesus is based on a belief that you had. It did not work out for you as you explained in the opening post of this thread. Your invitation to a debate on your belief tantamount to seeking proof that you were not wrong. You had what you believed was the key to open a lock. You tried to but could not open the lock with the key. Why?
"Many are called but few are chosen." This is a quote. Many believe that it is the words spoken by Jesus. What does the quote mean?
Logically there was either absolutely nothing, or an eternal something. If there was absolutely nothing (if that is even possible), then there were no rules to say how absolutely nothing behaves (including the something from nothing rule). The other option, an eternal something also requires no purpose (or god), it is a logical necessity.
And if a god did give us purpose, what is the purpose of this god? If a god does not require a purpose to exist, why should existence itself?
My life is filled with purpose, it is just not handed down from on high.
Over the past couple of days I have pursued the design and initial test coding of a retro computing project. I have found it very purposeful, enjoyable, and fun. It is unlikely to evolve into anything that will serve anyone else's purposes apart maybe from allowing them to enjoy playing with the finished result, and maybe rekindling some of my low-level code optimization chops to the benefit of my actual employer. But you know, some people are so obsessed with Making a Difference that they can't see any value in such modest objectives, especially if they are not under the umbrella of some sort of claimed Grand Project.
Purpose and meaning are what people decide that they are. Non-god-related purpose does not have to involve being a lost shade, wandering the earth without objective, being 100% self absorbed at all times, having no positive character traits or aspirations for being a better person, and just Buying Stuff out of sheer boredom. People get caught up in things like that for reasons unrelated to god and sometimes in spite of believing in god.
You've always been a sweetheart, .sparrow so easy to talk to and never abusive. Let me tell you my position on what I write and then please correct me:
You mention the twisting of Christ's teachings. The research I have done points to the fact that the things in the gospels are not Jesus' teaching because those words were written by anonymous Greek scholars 50-100 years after Jesus' crucifixion--assuming he was crucified (we don't know; we don't have any records of such a crucifixion or of Pilate ever having condemned a man named Jesus to be crucified). Nearly all of the stories in the gospels were drawn from a variety of earlier sources. Like for example:
* Jesus feeding the 5000 taken from Elisha feeding the 100 with a few loaves.
* Jesus raising Jarius' daughter from the dead taken from Elisha raising Shunammite woman's son from the dead
* Jesus raising the Widow of Nain's son from dead taken from Elijah raising the widow's son from the dead
* Jesus turning water into wine taken from various miracles of Dionysus turning water into wine
And on and on. Nearly every story in the gospels can find a basis or inspiration from earlier sources whether from the OT or Homer or various mythological gods' stories
This Jesus never wrote anything down so we cannot assign his name to any writings like we can Julius Caesar, for example.
There is absolutely no historical evidence for Jesus, Joseph or Mary, or that Joseph was a carpenter or that Jesus was born in Bethlehem and lived in Nazareth.
Origen an early church father as much as admitted the stories of Jesus were taken from pagan sources:
"And when we say also that the Word...was produced without sexual union, and that He, Jesus Christ was crucified and died, and rose again, and ascended into heaven,we propound nothing different from what you believe regarding those whom you esteem sons of Jupiter."
This is just a small part of what troubles me about believing in Jesus, .sparrow because who am I actually believing in?
Please feel free to chime in so we can have a discussion about these issues.
Hey thrill,
For me personally.... let's say that everything you're saying is correct. There was no such person as Jesus.
I still believe what I believe. That the Creator has a plan for all humans. That we're here to learn. We are all one, in the sense that we are all creations of God, and God loves all and has all in the palm of His hand. This world isn't about "do good so you'll be blessed!" or "you evil sinners are going to hell!" It's about learning about the power of love and the ugly destructive nature of non-love. We're ALL learning it together. We ALL have free will. and every person's actions affect others in ways that echo for a very long time. The ONE bad decision of my great grandparents, for instance, set forth a domino effect of suffering and misery for a lot of my other relations. One act of abandonment (an act of non-love) caused much destruction. But there were also glimmers of hope and reconciliation as well. Some of the non-love was overcome with love here now on this plane of existance. The rest of the non-love will be overcome with love on the other side of this life. This is the case for pretty much everyone, I believe.
For me, the story of Jesus fits PERFECTLY like a jigsaw puzzle piece into the way that I view our existence. Just because there were similar stories before Jesus was said to be here on this earth, what if those stories were pointing TO Jesus. So Jesus would be recognized by many other peoples? It's just a thought.
It's difficult sometimes, to believe what I believe, only in the sense that it's hard to share it at times. Sometimes I feel like what I have to say will be seen as condescending and disrespectful of another person's path. So it's hard to put into words. For instance, if someone believed that once you die, that's it you are gone forever, with no consciousness.... that's their path. But secretly inside, I smile to myself because I believe that death is just door we walk through and I believe that God has some beautiful surprises for that person. Such as their loved ones being on the other side of that door.... even animals that they loved and lost in this lifetime. There. Waiting. Turning what they thought was reality (nothingness after death) and them being ok with that reality (nothingness after death), but then they get the surprise of their life. It's not a casual belief. It's not a frivolous belief. It's a belief that I would literally give my own life to defend (if for some bizarre reason that was necessary, not sure why it would be....). This is just how strongly I believe this .With my entire being. But if I were to try to tell that person these things, for me, it's just difficult to word. Because I truly do respect the fact that everyone has their own path to walk in this life. And no-one's path is better than anothers. We're all different and have unique life experiences. We're all going home via different ways and paths.
I normally wouldn't even respond to a thread such as this. But a lot of those 20 reasons were just someone putting all of "Christianity" under only ONE perspective OF Christianity. The whole "preying on the innocent" and "is cruel" and "produces sexual misery" "arrogance".... etc. Maybe if it was 20 reasons to abandon <insert a fundamentalist type> sect of Christianity. But it's just putting everything under the umbrella of Christianity and giving those reasons to abandon basically ALL of Christianity. I just thought it was ridiculous and narrow-minded and even a bit arrogant. So that's why I even replied.
Anyway..... My personal experiences.... are kind of just that, personal. I can't make anyone else understand MY story. I can share it, but I know it just won't mean as much to someone else as it does to me. And the things that were overcome in my life. The very difficult refining fires I've been through that burned off a lot of unnecessary fears/beliefs/thoughts that needed to be burned off. So much just.... tedious JUNK. To me, the meaning of life is simple, yet profound. But people muddy it up so much with just endless, mindless debate. They keep missing the main points. They keep bypassing the stuff that is so simple that even a child could understand. Kids are closer to God. The longer we're here, it seems the world wraps around us tighter and tighter until we forget our true home and the one who created us. We knew more when we were kids. I'm certain of it.
Sorry for the rambling. And nothing I said answered any of your questions. Or gave you any sort of good argument. But I guess it's just because I don't feel it's all that necessary. You're on your path and that's all there is to it. Who am I to tell you that you need to be on another path? If you don't think Jesus existed.... no-one can MAKE you believe anything until you have satisfied the questions for yourself. I think God prefers those who seek and seek and seek.... It's a good thing.
The new thread is closed. May I follow up with a reply to you in this thread?
You said: "The profession of faith that you can relate with Jesus is NOT a historic fact."
I am not professing a faith. I am testifying to a living relationship. Please let me explain.
Your take on Jesus is based on a belief that you had. It did not work out for you as you explained in the opening post of this thread. Your invitation to a debate on your belief tantamount to seeking proof that you were not wrong. You had what you believed was the key to open a lock. You tried to but could not open the lock with the key. Why?
"Many are called but few are chosen." This is a quote. Many believe that it is the words spoken by Jesus. What does the quote mean?
You want a debate? Let's do it.
Okay, the thread has been reopened. We can debate over there, but please read my post #54 first.
For me personally.... let's say that everything you're saying is correct. There was no such person as Jesus.
I still believe what I believe. That the Creator has a plan for all humans. That we're here to learn. We are all one, in the sense that we are all creations of God, and God loves all and has all in the palm of His hand. This world isn't about "do good so you'll be blessed!" or "you evil sinners are going to hell!" It's about learning about the power of love and the ugly destructive nature of non-love. We're ALL learning it together. We ALL have free will. and every person's actions affect others in ways that echo for a very long time. The ONE bad decision of my great grandparents, for instance, set forth a domino effect of suffering and misery for a lot of my other relations. One act of abandonment (an act of non-love) caused much destruction. But there were also glimmers of hope and reconciliation as well. Some of the non-love was overcome with love here now on this plane of existance. The rest of the non-love will be overcome with love on the other side of this life. This is the case for pretty much everyone, I believe.
For me, the story of Jesus fits PERFECTLY like a jigsaw puzzle piece into the way that I view our existence. Just because there were similar stories before Jesus was said to be here on this earth, what if those stories were pointing TO Jesus. So Jesus would be recognized by many other peoples? It's just a thought.
It's difficult sometimes, to believe what I believe, only in the sense that it's hard to share it at times. Sometimes I feel like what I have to say will be seen as condescending and disrespectful of another person's path. So it's hard to put into words. For instance, if someone believed that once you die, that's it you are gone forever, with no consciousness.... that's their path. But secretly inside, I smile to myself because I believe that death is just door we walk through and I believe that God has some beautiful surprises for that person. Such as their loved ones being on the other side of that door.... even animals that they loved and lost in this lifetime. There. Waiting. Turning what they thought was reality (nothingness after death) and them being ok with that reality (nothingness after death), but then they get the surprise of their life. It's not a casual belief. It's not a frivolous belief. It's a belief that I would literally give my own life to defend (if for some bizarre reason that was necessary, not sure why it would be....). This is just how strongly I believe this .With my entire being. But if I were to try to tell that person these things, for me, it's just difficult to word. Because I truly do respect the fact that everyone has their own path to walk in this life. And no-one's path is better than anothers. We're all different and have unique life experiences. We're all going home via different ways and paths.
I normally wouldn't even respond to a thread such as this. But a lot of those 20 reasons were just someone putting all of "Christianity" under only ONE perspective OF Christianity. The whole "preying on the innocent" and "is cruel" and "produces sexual misery" "arrogance".... etc. Maybe if it was 20 reasons to abandon <insert a fundamentalist type> sect of Christianity. But it's just putting everything under the umbrella of Christianity and giving those reasons to abandon basically ALL of Christianity. I just thought it was ridiculous and narrow-minded and even a bit arrogant. So that's why I even replied.
Anyway..... My personal experiences.... are kind of just that, personal. I can't make anyone else understand MY story. I can share it, but I know it just won't mean as much to someone else as it does to me. And the things that were overcome in my life. The very difficult refining fires I've been through that burned off a lot of unnecessary fears/beliefs/thoughts that needed to be burned off. So much just.... tedious JUNK. To me, the meaning of life is simple, yet profound. But people muddy it up so much with just endless, mindless debate. They keep missing the main points. They keep bypassing the stuff that is so simple that even a child could understand. Kids are closer to God. The longer we're here, it seems the world wraps around us tighter and tighter until we forget our true home and the one who created us. We knew more when we were kids. I'm certain of it.
Sorry for the rambling. And nothing I said answered any of your questions. Or gave you any sort of good argument. But I guess it's just because I don't feel it's all that necessary. You're on your path and that's all there is to it. Who am I to tell you that you need to be on another path? If you don't think Jesus existed.... no-one can MAKE you believe anything until you have satisfied the questions for yourself. I think God prefers those who seek and seek and seek.... It's a good thing.
peace friend,
sparrow
You're one of the good ones, .sparrow. I've always admired your calm demeanor and friendly sweet disposition--something so rare in Christians when they are challenged.
I'm happy you are happy. If your belief in Jesus makes you a better person then I'm all for your belief in him. Cheers.
That was a really nice thing to say.
Thanks thrill.
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So, don't even GO there, thrill...
