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Use whatever means you have at your disposal to make it to safe harbor at the end of every treacherous grief-filled day whether it be sex, drugs, rock n' roll and yes, even Jesus. If belief in Jesus is your life-jacket then by all means believe in him.
It is interesting. Because of all those things it's just Jesus that keeps you from getting in to trouble with sex, drugs and rock and roll. Which is mainly what Jesus is for. To help us feel good about behaving in an orderly social manner. Well, that and the eternal life deal.
But none of that "changed my life" stuff really tells us if the Judeo- Christian version of all this is true. It's not evidence of anything except that the person has changed their thoughts or at least their behaviors.
And none of the apologetics surrounding Jesus means anything.
The only real proof that it is true is if Jesus returns like he said would. It is my belief based on my own observations that every one of us will die a natural death and that Jesus will not have returned. Thus passing the controversy to the succeeding generations. They will wrestle with it and pass it on to their succeeding generations.
It is my hope that Christianity will slowly evolve back to Jesus social message as opposed to emphasis on blood sacrifice for sins. And that the return of Jesus will go on the back burner sort of like how the "imminent coming" of the Messiah has occurred in the Jewish faith.
It is interesting. Because of all those things it's just Jesus that keeps you from getting in to trouble with sex, drugs and rock and roll. Which is mainly what Jesus is for. To help us feel good about behaving in an orderly social manner. Well, that and the eternal life deal.
But none of that "changed my life" stuff really tells us if the Judeo- Christian version of all this is true. It's not evidence of anything except that the person has changed their thoughts or at least their behaviors.
And none of the apologetics surrounding Jesus means anything.
The only real proof that it is true is if Jesus returns like he said would. It is my belief based on my own observations that every one of us will die a natural death and that Jesus will not have returned. Thus passing the controversy to the succeeding generations. They will wrestle with it and pass it on to their succeeding generations.
It is my hope that Christianity will slowly evolve back to Jesus social message as opposed to emphasis on blood sacrifice for sins. And that the return of Jesus will go on the back burner sort of like how the "imminent coming" of the Messiah has occurred in the Jewish faith.
Couple of thoughts: when I was attending classes to be a drug/alcohol counselor after I retired I had this teacher who was a former alcoholic. He worked the AA 12-step program. One requirement was you had to have a higher power to pray to. He was atheist. It didn't pose a problem for him. He "invented" "Charlie", his form of god. He prayed to Charlie, he thanked Charlie. To him Charlie was his "higher power" and he said it worked fine for him. "Higher power" is just a place marker. It can be Marilyn Monroe if you want (now there's a goddess! ) or Edgar Allen Poe or any one you want to invent as long as it is an entity you can have an imaginary conversation with.
Another thought: Jesus is not going to change anything for a person. Belief in Jesus will change something for you. It's the person's BELIEF that Jesus will get them to safe harbor at the end of the day that gets them there, not Jesus himself. Jesus doesn't have the power to do anything. Jesus is a mythological creature. We have it within ourselves to believe just about anything. If belief in the Spaghetti Monster gets you to the end of a day then by all means pray to the SM, believe in the SM, worship the SM--do whatever you have to and believe in whatever you have to to get you to the end of the day safe and sound with your sanity intact. Life is hard enough doing it on your own. Having a little bit of help is fine if it lessens the burden. If believing in Jesus lightens the burden then by all means BELIEVE IN HIM!
My older brother is a strong Christian. He wasn't always that way. He got that way as a result of a traumatic event in his life--something that is very common with people who convert to Christianity. He frequently talks to me about waiting for Jesus to return. I can only grit my teeth and listen knowing that my brother who is greatest guy on earth and who I love very much and who I would never hurt in a million years by bursting his bubble about Jesus--It kills me to see my brother believing so strongly that Jesus will come back because I know it's all phony baloney. But he's 84 and hasn't got much time left. What good would it do to destroy his last remaining hope in something he believes so strongly in? So I keep my mouth shut. But I wouldn't wish a wasted life believing in such nonsense on my worst enemy if they were young and had their whole life ahead of them.
So I'm in here to warn people that what they are contemplating investing their entire life believing in is a complete fantasy invented by clever churchmen who wanted a cushy position in life complete with power, money, influence and sex--lots of sex. Jesus was their ticket to all these riches so they used his avatar to get there and dupe everybody else into believing in him so they could get there. I just want people to know all this. If they still want to throw their lives away on Jesus then I'll buy them a ticket to the show.
Last edited by thrillobyte; 12-28-2022 at 09:52 AM..
Another thought: Jesus is not going to change anything for a person. Belief in Jesus will change something for you. It's the person's BELIEF that Jesus will get them to safe harbor at the end of the day that gets them there, not Jesus himself. Jesus doesn't have the power to do anything. Jesus is a mythological creature. We have it within ourselves to believe just about anything. If belief in the Spaghetti Monster gets you to the end of a day then by all means pray to the SM, believe in the SM, worship the SM--do whatever you have to and believe in whatever you have to to get you to the end of the safe and sound with your sanity intact.
Yes. I suppose it is some sort of placebo effect. Just for fun I googled "(Allah/Quran/Muhammed) will change/has changed (your/my) life" and got some results.
Testimonials of how various aspects of Islam changes lives. So certainly the "changed life" thing isn't exclusive to Christianity.
Yes. I suppose it is some sort of placebo effect. Just for fun I googled "(Allah/Quran/Muhammed) will change/has changed (your/my) life" and got some results.
Testimonials of how various aspects of Islam changes lives. So certainly the "changed life" thing isn't exclusive to Christianity.
It can stretch past religion to atheism, though it'd be much less common. At the end of the day we all have to have something to believe in, whether it's sex, drugs or rock n roll. Having an active belief in and participation in and looking forward to the next day to indulge in something you really enjoy is what gets most of us out of bed the next day. Certainly another dreary day at a job we hate doesn't do the trick. Of course, hard drugs are a no-no but something legal like looking forward to a good Mary J session to unwind can be something to look forward to, as can a good ski trip on the weekend ,etc, etc,.
Whatever gets you through to the end of the day whether it be rock n roll, good MJ, sports, or good sex with your spouse is worth "worshiping" and living your life for. Jesus and the Spaghetti Monster too if you have a religious bent.
You can view me as a weak and foolish person needing props, if you want. You have no clue about all that was overcome in my life, and there was nothing weak or foolish about it.
Do you think it took weakness and foolishness to tell someone a severe wrong I did to them, and to reconcile. The only thing that propped me up in that was knowing it is the righteous thing to do, and to accept either the favorable or unfavorable consequence.
You have only proven that the words you spoke in the quoted from my previous post were only you giving lip service. And all you have is the divided and diminishing nature in what you speak. You can't call Jesus Christ a lie and a myth out of one side of your mouth and then claim to be happy for someone who believes in Jesus Christ out of the other side of your mouth.
Since your view of Jesus Christ is a mere life-jacket, consider Joseph whose coat his father gave him was returned to him ripped up and with blood stains on it. And it was Joseph's belief in what God showed him, that carried him through all he endured. In due time his scoffing brothers got their proof and evidence, that what Joseph shared came from God and saved their lives.
(sigh)
I'll try to explain the concept one more time, chief, then you're on your own.
From where I'm standing Jesus is a myth. There's no historical evidence for him. That's good enough for me. I don't advocate a person throwing their life away on what I would believe is a myth because at the end of the day you're devoting your entire life to serving someone that the evidence says never existed. But if that's your choice after having heard the other side's story then by all means go ahead and devote your life to what I consider a myth and what you consider to be a real person.
The main thing is just have something in life that gets you safely to the end of the day with your sanity intact. This is a horrible world we live in. The evening news shows us bodies being blown to bits in wars, hundreds of millions of people living in deplorable squalid conditions walking thousands of miles with two children strapped to their backs trying to get to a better country, children dying of malnutrition and disease or being slaughtered in some genocide, young girls trapped in slavery in some nutjob's basement, innocent people shot dead by the police and on and on. The bad news is endless. And it tells a two things:
1. the world is an awful place
2. there's no god helping us to get through it
We're on our own down here and it is up to us as individuals to find a way to get through this horrid life anyway we can, whether it's believing in Santa Clause or Jesus. Believe in whatever you want as long as it keeps you from going batship crazy and you've heard the other side of the story and are making an informed decision. That's all I'm saying.
I'll try to explain the concept one more time, chief, then you're on your own.
From where I'm standing Jesus is a myth. There's no historical evidence for him. That's good enough for me. I don't advocate a person throwing their life away on what I would believe is a myth because at the end of the day you're devoting your entire life to serving someone that the evidence says never existed. But if that's your choice after having heard the other side's story then by all means go ahead and devote your life to what I consider a myth and what you consider to be a real person.
The main thing is just have something in life that gets you safely to the end of the day with your sanity intact. This is a horrible world we live in. The evening news shows us bodies being blown to bits in wars, hundreds of millions of people living in deplorable squalid conditions walking thousands of miles with two children strapped to their backs trying to get to a better country, children dying of malnutrition and disease or being slaughtered in some genocide, young girls trapped in slavery in some nutjob's basement, innocent people shot dead by the police and on and on. The bad news is endless. And it tells a two things:
1. the world is an awful place
2. there's no god helping us to get through it
We're on our own down here and it is up to us as individuals to find a way to get through this horrid life anyway we can, whether it's believing in Santa Clause or Jesus. Believe in whatever you want as long as it keeps you from going batship crazy and you've heard the other side of the story and are making an informed decision. That's all I'm saying.
So, you claim to be the light, while calling everyone who passes through this world believing in Jesus Christ to be the ultimate fool's kept in darkness. Which is what this world did when it crucified him, even releasing a murderer, while shouting crucify to the innocent one.
You call people who believe God's word the ultimate fools, while considering yourself wise above all as your starting point. What kind of teacher would begin to teach from such a position? The Satan/serpent did that.
I don't view people who do not believe as fools or stupid. As I pointed out in my post you responded to about Joseph. Because I personally know there comes a time.
Think of this, it was the Pharaoh in Egypt at the time, that took it on faith that someone in his prison could interpret a dream he had and listened to him and took the action he spoke and received the prophet's reward.
And when a father teaches his children or a teacher teaches a class, they do not view them as fools. They seek a bright future for them, while knowing that with many lessons in life, there comes a time when what was taught will dawn on them, even the hard lessons and that is when growth of the seed occurs and the trust of someone being straight with them is established. I remember being out in a friend's shop (someone who took carpentry classes) was trying to figure out the angle on the roof to install a chimney for a wood stove, and he had forgotten what he was taught. I mentioned what a carpenter friend had taught me on how to calculate the roof pitch and in that very moment I saw it dawn on him, that he already knew how to do that, as he had been taught in school.
I know that Death is the greatest humility and I accept that, and you can view me as the ultimate fool in passing through life in this world if you so choose. I share what I know, and I don't have to google anything to do it.
Last edited by chief scum; 12-29-2022 at 08:45 AM..
What good would it do to destroy his last remaining hope in something he believes so strongly in? So I keep my mouth shut.
That's similar to my 2nd / late wife, on whose watch I deconverted. She was fully aware of where I was going with my budding unbelief, and it wasn't a problem for us because I did not begrudge her the comfort she got from remaining in the faith, even if I didn't understand it. I never shared my thought that it was so much holy horse-pucky. Why bother? She drew comfort and therefore strength from it. She was willing to buy all the excuses and equivocations and circumlocutions because that was less painful (for her) than letting go of them. To be perfectly honest, if she would have come around to my way of thinking before her death, it wouldn't have gladdened my heart. I just wanted her not to suffer in any way, and did not want her to die. I would take her with or without Jesus.
Similarly if wife #3, an atheist, suddenly found Jesus, perhaps because it helped resolve some of her deep-seated angst from a traumatic childhood, I would not try to dissuade her. I would ask only that she would respect me and my unbelief as much as I respect and give her the space for her belief.
As you point out, none of this is incompatible with seeing harms in Christianity and wanting to surface those concerns for the benefit of people who are questioning the utility of their Christian beliefs. I am not even looking for people to deconvert so much as to shift to less authoritarian and strident flavors of religious faith, away from the kinds of beliefs and practices that are eating away at the social fabric and even promoting outright fascism.
So, you claim to be the light, while calling everyone who passes through this world believing in Jesus Christ to be the ultimate fool's kept in darkness. Which is what this world did when it crucified him, even releasing a murderer, while shouting crucify to the innocent one.
You call people who believe God's word the ultimate fools, while considering yourself wise above all as your starting point. What kind of teacher would begin to teach from such a position? The Satan/serpent did that.
I don't view people who do not believe as fools or stupid. As I pointed out in my post you responded to about Joseph. Because I personally know there comes a time.
Think of this, it was the Pharaoh in Egypt at the time, that took it on faith that someone in his prison could interpret a dream he had and listened to him and took the action he spoke and received the prophet's reward.
And when a father teaches his children or a teacher teaches a class, they do not view them as fools. They seek a bright future for them, while knowing that with many lessons in life, there comes a time when what was taught will dawn on them, even the hard lessons and that is when growth of the seed occurs and the trust of someone being straight with them is established. I remember being out in a friend's shop (someone who took carpentry classes) was trying to figure out the angle on the roof to install a chimney for a wood stove, and he had forgotten what he was taught. I mentioned what a carpenter friend had taught me on how to calculate the roof pitch and in that very moment I saw it dawn on him, that he already knew how to do that, as he had been taught in school.
I know that Death is the greatest humility and I accept that, and you can view me as the ultimate fool in passing through life in this world if you so choose. I share what I know, and I don't have to google anything to do it.
I tried to pass on some helpful advice to the readers in here and so did you. Fair enough. The readers will do whatever they feel is best for them. Good luck.
I tried to pass on some helpful advice to the readers in here and so did you. Fair enough. The readers will do whatever they feel is best for them. Good luck.
You highlighted the part of my post where I said; "So, you claim to be the light". Then with your response, you tried to spin it.
The thing is, I don't claim to be the light. I look to the One who is Light, from God's first spoken.
The world is full of false Messiahs of all kinds, even from the pulpits, making a mockery of everything.
Last edited by chief scum; 12-29-2022 at 01:37 PM..
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) or Edgar Allen Poe or any one you want to invent as long as it is an entity you can have an imaginary conversation with. 
