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Using the parameters and logic and verbiage put forth by LM in his posts:
atheism is an "alternative claim opinion belief" and it is NOT "commonly recognized."
The 81% belief in God IS commonly recognized.
such is the corner which that view paints itself into.
I have no problem understanding the math or that most people are religious or spiritual. Atheists by far in the minority. Certainly true here in America and plenty of other countries. Surely seems to me those are facts and truths that we can all generally accept as such. What I mean by universally accepted. No debate. Facts and truths "beyond a reasonable doubt." Or why not?
Again, those are not the sorts of facts and truths I've been referring to, but as an atheist I do try to stick to the facts and truths we can all easily and commonly agree about. That a god exists or does not exist is certainly not one of them. Nor does a majority belief make it a belief true or factual.
There was a time when the majority believed in the institution of slavery, for example. That fact did not nor does NOT prove the right or wrong about slavery. Very hard to for me to understand how this confusion can continue no matter what is explained about this, and no doubt I should stop trying, but really?
The topic is “I am spiritual but not religious”, what does it mean?". My posts only refer to that topic because that is where my interests lie. Not in anything else.
Neither Religion nor Spirituality are based on facts and truth. This is a fact and is truth in my opinion.
Spirituality is inquiry into the nature of Self, which is capitalized for a reason which I can explain but cannot make you understand.
The Self is not understood by ordinary knowledge based on observation and inference. It does not make any claims. It simply exists, and that is its nature.
"Neither Religion nor Spirituality are based on facts and truth."
Beautiful. Progress perhaps!
And yes, back to the topic. I'm pretty sure most of us have provided our answer(s) in this thread by now.
I am certainly fine and respectful of the rest you describe about where your personal interests lie and what inquiring into the "nature of Self" means to you. My interests go a little beyond what you sum up here, and perhaps my interest(s) and perspective(s) can be similarly understood and respected. That'd be nice. Thanks!
The bold belies your claim to a science background because you are dismissing as "bull" that which you have not and will not make the effort to verify on your own despite my clear references to the relevant science. If you can establish that what I reference is NOT extant science, then you can call my hypotheses from them "bull." Otherwise, it is you who is "shooting the bull!!!" (I am NOT talking about my BELIEFS!)
Quote:
Originally Posted by phetaroi
The LAST person on this forum I'm going to listen to about 'science' is you. You who is afraid to take your fringe beliefs to any science forum, despite being repeatedly challenged by multiple posters to do so. THAT practice -- laying scientific beliefs in front of the people who make up the body of science -- is an integral part of scientific thought and confirmation.
I have no fear of taking my views to the science forum. That is a baiting insult unworthy of a supposed scholar. The LAST people I would waste my time trying to educate are those who are too lazy to acquire the necessary basic knowledge by researching on their own and who seek Cliff's Notes education on a discussion forum! The bias against God discussion in the science fora and against science in the R&S fora are absurd and render such discussions pointless.
I have no fear of taking my views to the science forum. That is a baiting insult unworthy of a supposed scholar. The LAST people I would waste my time trying to educate are those who are too lazy to acquire the necessary basic knowledge by researching on their own and who seek Cliff's Notes education on a discussion forum! The bias against God discussion in the science fora and against science in the R&S fora are absurd and render such discussions pointless.
Mystic, do you feel you need the Science forum of CD to validate your religion and spirituality? Why?
I have no fear of taking my views to the science forum. That is a baiting insult unworthy of a supposed scholar. The LAST people I would waste my time trying to educate are those who are too lazy to acquire the necessary basic knowledge by researching on their own and who seek Cliff's Notes education on a discussion forum! The bias against God discussion in the science fora and against science in the R&S fora are absurd and render such discussions pointless.
Talk is cheap, as the old saying goes. Show us where you have done so.
Mystic, do you feel you need the Science forum of CD to validate your religion and spirituality? Why?
No, I definitely do not!!! I am responding to the heckling and nagging of some of the intellectually lazy atheists here who keep seeking Cliff's Notes education of what took me decades to learn. I present my views to encourage others in their belief in God because God exists and is within our consciousness - to my initial and ultimate surprise!! IMO, there can be no doubt about that whatsoever. Skeptics are of no interest to me.
Those atheists who THINK they know enough to reject the existence of God but are too lazy to learn more based on my "signposts" about where to look are just an annoyance to me. Their insults and denigrations are personally grating but they are of little to no significance. I appreciate you, Tzaph, Gldn, and so many others here who have found value in my views, even those who have not necessarily been vocal about it.
No, I definitely do not!!! I am responding to the heckling and nagging of some of the intellectually lazy atheists here who keep seeking Cliff's Notes education of what took me decades to learn. I present my views to encourage others in their belief in God because God exists and is within our consciousness - to my initial and ultimate surprise!! IMO, there can be no doubt about that whatsoever. Skeptics are of no interest to me.
Those atheists who THINK they know enough to reject the existence of God but are too lazy to learn more based on my "signposts" about where to look are just an annoyance to me. Their insults and denigrations are personally grating but they are of little to no significance. I appreciate you, Tzaph, Gldn, and so many others here who have found value in my views, even those who have not necessarily been vocal about it.
there is value in your views. you have grown a lot over the years and decades.
No, I definitely do not!!! I am responding to the heckling and nagging of some of the intellectually lazy atheists here who keep seeking Cliff's Notes education of what took me decades to learn. I present my views to encourage others in their belief in God because God exists and is within our consciousness - to my initial and ultimate surprise!! IMO, there can be no doubt about that whatsoever. Skeptics are of no interest to me.
Those atheists who THINK they know enough to reject the existence of God but are too lazy to learn more based on my "signposts" about where to look are just an annoyance to me. Their insults and denigrations are personally grating but they are of little to no significance. I appreciate you, Tzaph, Gldn, and so many others here who have found value in my views, even those who have not necessarily been vocal about it.
I have a strong suspicion I'm lumped in there with those you describe as "intellectually lazy atheists," and either way, that continuous nagging insult has been addressed many times. I won't bother doing so again, but I can't help but note those who you seem to be insulting along those lines, who "are of no interest" to you, are the very same people you have spent a good deal of time and effort to address, educate and/or insult.
I also find value in your views. That you share them anyway, and I can easily see how you Tzap, Gldn and CB are typically of like mind when it comes to expressing your ways of thinking, reasoning and ultimately your strong beliefs in a god. I also find value in some of your criticisms about religion and religious thinking. That you share those too.
Whether we agree or disagree about such things, I don't think the insults are necessary, although I can appreciate the want to go that way sometimes too. The want if not necessity when frustration about alternative opinion seems born of other than good, sound reason and critical thinking. Especially when the arguments seem all about intractable stubbornness, obstinance and bias beyond reason.
Again for all of us to judge who is more or less guilty along any of these lines than the next. I too appreciate your comments, but you are by no means an innocent when it comes to many of these shortcomings we all demonstrate one way or another. To one extent or another.
No, I definitely do not!!! I am responding to the heckling and nagging of some of the intellectually lazy atheists here who keep seeking Cliff's Notes education of what took me decades to learn. I present my views to encourage others in their belief in God because God exists and is within our consciousness - to my initial and ultimate surprise!! IMO, there can be no doubt about that whatsoever. Skeptics are of no interest to me.
Those atheists who THINK they know enough to reject the existence of God but are too lazy to learn more based on my "signposts" about where to look are just an annoyance to me. Their insults and denigrations are personally grating but they are of little to no significance. I appreciate you, Tzaph, Gldn, and so many others here who have found value in my views, even those who have not necessarily been vocal about it.
Do you think your spiritual experience, learning, your beliefs and faith in them can by proved or disproved by Science? The two are not equal. Science is nothing but Divinity itself, all knowledge is. There is nothing outside of Divinity.
Science is not in the business of proving anything. It has no interest in answering the why, does it? It barely touches upon what. We do not know where in the Universal time line we exist. We may think we have evolved, but may be we are only in the infancy state of evolution and each one evolves at his own rate, conditioned by karma and time.
There are people you are never going to reach. They may not possess the same inclination, the need to know, nor understanding and effort required. Everyone cannot be a scientist either, nor understand science. Same with knowledge of the Divinity. That has no reflection on what you have gained.
Maybe you need to think about why you desire to make “them” know. Where is it coming from? Is it a good place?
Do you think your spiritual experience, learning, your beliefs and faith in them can by proved or disproved by Science? The two are not equal. Science is nothing but Divinity itself, all knowledge is. There is nothing outside of Divinity.
Science is not in the business of proving anything. It has no interest in answering the why, does it? It barely touches upon what. We do not know where in the Universal time line we exist. We may think we have evolved, but may be we are only in the infancy state of evolution and each one evolves at his own rate, conditioned by karma and time.
There are people you are never going to reach. They may not possess the same inclination, the need to know, nor understanding and effort required. Everyone cannot be a scientist either, nor understand science. Same with knowledge of the Divinity. That has no reflection on what you have gained.
Maybe you need to think about why you desire to make “them” know. Where is it coming from? Is it a good place?
As I'm signing off now for awhile, I'll leave it to Mystic to answer of course. Interesting, because I have understood Mystic to explain his beliefs can be supported by science. Not necessarily proved or disproved, or again I think we'd all believe in a god, but Mystic has many times explained how science can demonstrate what he considers to be evidence of a god. I might be wrong. We shall see...
With regard to all the rest you explain, if you put it that way, then I guess we're back to anything goes. Including us atheists of course, who are also part of Divinity itself as you describe Divinity. Part of what all knowledge is. Anything goes as in that everything is part of the whole, but lumping everything into the same divine soup you seem to be describing only serves to make any claims of fact and truth equally worthy and/or unworthy. A great "catch all" way of thinking that tends to badly obscure the sorts of distinctions some of us are more inclined to consider.
You put many a scientist out of business if true that science is not in the business of proving anything. I'd like to hear what the majority of scientists would say about that one!
Until I return, but right now it's time for me to sign off and turn my focus toward holiday travels and family gatherings that I consider a very "good place."
To all, regardless where you may be, here's the best of safe, happy holidays to you and yours!
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