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I find it odd that one would assume these discussions are to change minds. I see them as exploration of the topic, sharing of experiences, discussion over questions.
I suppose if we see everything in life as a conflict, as some seem to believe, then it would be win/lose change mind.
But life is not always conflict. It is mystery. Often we go with intuition, and may be a prayer.
They may not change, but they may change perceptions.
I find it odd that one would assume these discussions are to change minds. I see them as exploration of the topic, sharing of experiences, discussion over questions.
I suppose if we see everything in life as a conflict, as some seem to believe, then it would be win/lose change mind.
But life is not always conflict. It is mystery. Often we go with intuition, and may be a prayer.
So if it is a mystery, then you do not know, so surely one would change their mind if new information was learnt?
This is my understanding of prayer: it is not just requests to God. Prayer is confession of our transgressions toward God, adoration of Him, thanking Him and also supplication (the "ACTS" that I'm sure others have heard of).
<snipped>
I had to look up ACTS. Similar to the ACTS acronym, but leaving out the "confession" part, is the title of one of Anne Lamott's books, Help Thanks Wow, what she calls the three essential types of prayer. Very funny writer who credits Christianity with saving her from drug and alcohol addiction.
I was six when I learned that God does not answer prayers for healing, at least not for people I care about. I had to pray each night for a same-age cousin, who subsequently died of leukemia. I blamed myself for not praying correctly because I really believed that if I prayed, she would be healed. Then it occurred to me that God was likely to try to kill me, too, since I knew I was such a sinner and all by virtue of my existence. Why someone would lie like that to a child is another story, but I've gotten past the repercussions of that event, although it took half my lifetime. However, I came to find as I grew up into adulthood, prayers for someone to be healed/not to die are not ever answered in the way I would like. In fact, it seemed that just the mere act of alerting God to the fact that I wanted someone I loved to be healed would prompt Him to kill them posthaste. Of course, that way of thinking is just as crazy as believing they will be healed just because I asked for it. Anyway, I long ago stopped ever praying for someone to be healed of an illness or not to die. They will live or they will die and nothing I do or say will have any influence whatsoever. I did continue to pray for peace for them, though.
As far as the ask for bread/get stone instead experience, another regular poster--he once a very devout Christian, now an atheist; me, a somewhat less devout Christian who wanted to be an atheist at various points in life but has some trouble staying there--and I have discussed that analogy on here, but not in such simple terms as asking for something and not getting it. It was more than that. Asking for something, and not something trivial, but major, life-changing desperate requests from the depths of the heart, and then it appearing--almost like a coincidence!--that the prayer was answered. The bread seemed to be on the table, fresh and warm. But eventually, we came to find that it was an illusion. It was a big ol' stone all along, hard and cold. It's not a matter of just not having a prayer answered, it's the apparent trickery and deception, seemingly performed by a supposedly loving God, and it's hard to reconcile with one's faith. In fact, such an experience can destroy faith completely.
Don't need to discuss this any further and derail the thread, I just wanted to clarify the reference and not leave it trivialized.
I had to look up ACTS. Similar to the ACTS acronym, but leaving out the "confession" part, is the title of one of Anne Lamott's books, Help Thanks Wow, what she calls the three essential types of prayer. Very funny writer who credits Christianity with saving her from drug and alcohol addiction.
I was six when I learned that God does not answer prayers for healing, at least not for people I care about. I had to pray each night for a same-age cousin, who subsequently died of leukemia. I blamed myself for not praying correctly because I really believed that if I prayed, she would be healed. Then it occurred to me that God was likely to try to kill me, too, since I knew I was such a sinner and all by virtue of my existence. Why someone would lie like that to a child is another story, but I've gotten past the repercussions of that event, although it took half my lifetime. However, I came to find as I grew up into adulthood, prayers for someone to be healed/not to die are not ever answered in the way I would like. In fact, it seemed that just the mere act of alerting God to the fact that I wanted someone I loved to be healed would prompt Him to kill them posthaste. Of course, that way of thinking is just as crazy as believing they will be healed just because I asked for it. Anyway, I long ago stopped ever praying for someone to be healed of an illness or not to die. They will live or they will die and nothing I do or say will have any influence whatsoever. I did continue to pray for peace for them, though.
As far as the ask for bread/get stone instead experience, another regular poster--he once a very devout Christian, now an atheist; me, a somewhat less devout Christian who wanted to be an atheist at various points in life but has some trouble staying there--and I have discussed that analogy on here, but not in such simple terms as asking for something and not getting it. It was more than that. Asking for something, and not something trivial, but major, life-changing desperate requests from the depths of the heart, and then it appearing--almost like a coincidence!--that the prayer was answered. The bread seemed to be on the table, fresh and warm. But eventually, we came to find that it was an illusion. It was a big ol' stone all along, hard and cold. It's not a matter of just not having a prayer answered, it's the apparent trickery and deception, seemingly performed by a supposedly loving God, and it's hard to reconcile with one's faith. In fact, such an experience can destroy faith completely.
Don't need to discuss this any further and derail the thread, I just wanted to clarify the reference and not leave it trivialized.
I don't think it is unusual to lose our prayer and then returning to it. What has changed in the interim, for me, is my own sense of self, age and hopefully wisdom, and also clarity of purpose of what I pray for and why I pray.
I don't think it is unusual to lose our prayer and then returning to it. What has changed in the interim, for me, is my own sense of self, age and hopefully wisdom, and also clarity of purpose of what I pray for and why I pray.
I am past that. A few years ago, what you said above would have made sense to me, though.
What about un-prayer-related coincidence? Does anyone see anything in those weird little things that pop up?
For example, last week I could not remember the name of Thomas Keneally, the author of Schindler's Ark, the book on which Schindler's List was based. I looked it up.
Within two days, the surname Keneally popped up twice more in unrelated places. Is this just that I became aware of it because I looked it up and just would not have noticed otherwise?
What about when a song is in your head then you hear it on the radio? Or you are typing a word and you hear it on TV as you type? Certainly not earth-shattering or life-changing, but curious that it happens enough to make me say "hmmm".
I am past that. A few years ago, what you said above would have made sense to me, though.
What I have found from looking back at my life is when I was the most vulnerable, frightened, and insecure I did not think my prayers were being answered. This made me realize I am on my own and I need to address these issues facing me without fear and from strength. That did happen, i found resources within me that I did not know I had. Today I pray from a very different perspective.
(Journals we keep are hard to read, but oh boy, do they contain an ocean of misery! I have destroyed most of mine.)
As for Ann Lamott, she too has changed, matured, over the years, as has her writing and what she writes about. Her very first book I think was Bird by Bird, a very nice book on the art and craft of writing.
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