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All accounts make it clear that it was Romans who cruelly killed Jesus.
This is why the account in John of a milquetoast Pilate groveling before Jesus and kissing his behind is so full of it--historically a completely unbelievable portrait of a Pilate who in reality would never have said to a Jew, "I find no fault in this man." History paints Pilate as a ruthless tyrant who never met a Jew he didn't crucify. One more reason among hundreds why the gospels are a completely unreliable frankly dishonest portrayal of a mythical avatar man god named Jesus.
This is why the account in John of a milquetoast Pilate groveling before Jesus and kissing his behind is so full of it--historically a completely unbelievable portrait of a Pilate who in reality would never have said to a Jew, "I find no fault in this man." History paints Pilate as a ruthless tyrant who never met a Jew he didn't crucify. One more reason among hundreds why the gospels are a completely unreliable frankly dishonest portrayal of a mythical avatar man god named Jesus.
Yeah, Pilate acted as if he was all innocent in the matter. The only person Pilate cared about was Pilate. If he actually believed what he said, then he could have stopped it, and he chose not too.
And yet you seek to eliminate Jesus Christ by your words. As you point your finger at others.
Last edited by chief scum; 05-08-2023 at 01:15 PM..
Yeah, Pilate acted as if he was all innocent in the matter. The only person Pilate cared about was Pilate. If he actually believed what he said, then he could have stopped it, and he chose not too.
And yet you seek to eliminate Jesus Christ by your words. As you point your finger at others.
You're just about admitting that John painted a dishonest picture of Pilate. If John lied about Pilate did he also lie about Jesus saying that if we die not believing in him we will perish in our sins too?
For Crstnty to impute actions, plots, schemes, conspiracies, motives to others (the Jews in this case) fails to recognize that for the rest of the world (including Judaism), no, everything does not revolve around or relate to Jesus.
Judaism for 3,800 years has chugged along just fine. Before Jesus just fine. And after Jesus just fine. We will continue to serve God.
Jesus is big for Crstnty, but not relevant to Judaism.
so no, Jesus was not "a sacrifice for the Jews"
This is entirely understandable. But can you not see that for a believer in Christ, it was your ancestor's mistaken beliefs about how to serve God that made Jesus "a sacrifice TO the Jews' wrath and vengeance in service to God (or as Jesus said, "they knew not what they did.").
This is entirely understandable. But can you not see that for a believer in Christ, it was your ancestor's mistaken beliefs about how to serve God that made Jesus "a sacrifice TO the Jews' wrath and vengeance in service to God (or as Jesus said, "they knew not what they did.").
No. Only those seeking to perpetuate the vicious blood libel against the Jews, and propagate the hatred and killing of Jews which Crstnty has institutionalized and propagated and fanned the flames of for over two thousand years.
post above is an example and demonstration that such vicious hatred continues to this day and on this forum. the only "wrath and vengeance" present is that which Crstns such as yourself continue to engage in and mete out in the form of hatred and vicious blood libel.
Last edited by Tzaphkiel; 05-08-2023 at 03:29 PM..
This is entirely understandable. But can you not see that for a believer in Christ, it was your ancestor's mistaken beliefs about how to serve God that made Jesus "a sacrifice TO the Jews' wrath and vengeance in service to God (or as Jesus said, "they knew not what they did.").
I'm confused by that wording -- when sacrifices are made they are made TO God. To say that something was a sacrifice TO the Jews makes it seem like the sacrifice was an offering TO Jews.
None of this addresses the problems with calling Jesus' death a "sacrifice" in any ritually appropriate way, but I am not exactly clear on the semantics of the statement, itself.
Yeah, Pilate acted as if he was all innocent in the matter. The only person Pilate cared about was Pilate. If he actually believed what he said, then he could have stopped it, and he chose not too.
And yet you seek to eliminate Jesus Christ by your words. As you point your finger at others.
Quote:
Originally Posted by thrillobyte
You're just about admitting that John painted a dishonest picture of Pilate. If John lied about Pilate did he also lie about Jesus saying that if we die not believing in him we will perish in our sins too?
Last time I gave a response to you, you called me a liar and sought to condemn me. Now you bring another charge against me, and then John as a liar, and then reference a part of scripture where the Pharisees were calling Jesus Christ a liar.
I figure it is best to give you what you ask for and let your charges and condemnation that you seek, put me to Death and look to the One True God to be the final word over me.
and then John as a liar, and then reference a part of scripture where the Pharisees were calling Jesus Christ a liar.
I guess John soft pedaled Pilate and the Romans because he wasn't to enthused about them reading his book and ending up on a cross himself.
But one thing that your discussion with Thrill now evidences is exactly how "routine" crucifixion was in those times. Jesus wasn't anything special in terms of getting crucified.
Last time I gave a response to you, you called me a liar and sought to condemn me. Now you bring another charge against me, and then John as a liar, and then reference a part of scripture where the Pharisees were calling Jesus Christ a liar.
I figure it is best to give you what you ask for and let your charges and condemnation that you seek, put me to Death and look to the One True God to be the final word over me.
How did I call you a liar? What actually did I say? I may have said that what you were saying was a lie, that's typical of Christians to tell falsehoods to defend Jesus. And how did I condemn you?
You say "All the apostles were willing to go their deaths for their belief in Jesus." That's a flat out lie. We have not a single historic record outside the gospels of 11 of the apostles, nothing within the church literature that mentions any of the 11. If they died for their faith how do you explain that the early church leaders know nothing of them?
We have one reference to Peter, possibly Paul within a letter of Clement. But nothing of any of the 14 apostles including Paul in secular history. They are a complete myth far as secular historical attestation outside the church. Are you going to insist they all died for their faith? How do you know? What citations in the secular historic record do you use to prove your claim?
That's what I mean about you lying, not necessarily that you are a liar.
But one thing that your discussion with Thrill now evidences is exactly how "routine" crucifixion was in those times. Jesus wasn't anything special in terms of getting crucified.
You're right about that. Reza Aslan paints a completely believable portrait of Jesus as a zealot trying to free Israel from Roman rule and ends up on a cross like tens of thousands of other Jewish rebels.
Only Christians could take this tale of a two-bit failed rebel and with stealth and deceit turn him into the most famous man god who never was.
Last edited by thrillobyte; 05-08-2023 at 06:37 PM..
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