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I'm still waiting for someone to explain why conservative Christians focus on homosexuality to the exclusion of other things, like gluttony, tax evasion, or dumping elders in nursing homes and ignoring them.
It shouldn't be the focus and it is very sad that it is. I agree that elder neglect is a much worse issue than someone's orientation. Who cares what you do in the bedroom. I don't see the church getting all up in arms about people living together outside of marriage either.
I think a lot of people who believe in God do focus on the other issues, instead of trying to judge everyone else they focus on themselves and how they can make the world a better place. They don't search the Bible trying to find something that they can use (twist and bend) to say what they want it to say.
I believe in God and I have many friends who are gay and lesbians. They are wonderful people and I have never once thought about their love lives any more than the love lives of the friends I have who are not gay or lesbian. I just really hope that everyone knows that these hateful people (the anti-gay rights people) do not have the authority to speak for God. The God I know loves everyone. He does not descriminate.
Maybe you can clarify to me what you meant by this. Before you use words you should have a knowledge of what you are saying. I do believe that I did despute your claim and produced evidence for it, so I'm not quite sure what gave you the impression that I was resorting to ad hominem arguments.
Let me try recount what was said.
You offered Matt. 7 as an example of why I should not judge. You gave your interpretation, which basically implied we should never judge ("Before I even think about making value judgements on anyone else's life or "lifestyle" I must be blameless and pure. That has never and will never happen, so I don't try to poke my nose into other people's business.").
I disagreed with the interpretation you gave ("He does NOT say we should never judge anyone's behavior or views...Jesus obviously assumes we will judge persons and views.").
Rather than responding to my interpretation of the text and my argument, you responded: "Well, obviously you are above reproach and have the ultimate knowledge of the correct interpretation of the Bible. You must have cornered that market."
I think you were attacking me rather than my arguments. If you weren't, then I apologize. I took your statements as basically calling me arrogant and a know-it-all. If I misunderstood, then it is my fault. In my opinion, you simply called me an arrogant know-it-all and ignored what I said concerning the text of Matt. 7. BTW, in Matt. 7:6, it says, "Do not give dogs what is holy, and do not throw your pearlys before pigs." Obviously, you have to judge who the dogs and pigs are...[SIZE=3]
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Originally Posted by Miss Martha
I'm pretty sure that Jesus (being a part of the trinity, so God) is an authority on who is going to hell and I am positive that you and I are not authorities on this. I think that yes Jesus can be judgemental because he is God. I do not claim to know God's mindset on these things and will never try to tell people that I do know this or that because "God told me in the Bible". If homosexuality was so horrible, why is it not in the 10 commandments? Why is it that so many "Christians" make it their business to try to "prove" that God doesn't want people to be homosexual. In my personal opinion no person on this earth has the authority to tell me what God is trying to tell me. It is between myself and God. GOD is the ultimate authority on this, not some "this is my interpretation therefore it is the truth" person on their soap box.
I know you have not seen me claim that God has "told me" anything. Homosexuality is in the 10 commandmens implicitly. You just view the 10 commandments through your own presuppositions and do not see it. "Do not commit adultery" implicitly condemns homosexuality in my view, given what I think the Bible teaches about marriage in Genesis 2-3. I do not think my interpretation is "the only one" or necessarily the right one, but I do think the evidence and context of these passages is in favor of my interpretation; otherwise, I would not hold my interpretation. Obviously, you disagree with my interpretation; otherwise, you would not hold to it.
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Originally Posted by Miss Martha
Is this person stealing from me is not a judgement of, oh this is a horrible person or this person is going to hell. No, it is a judgement of whether or not you would want to be around a person who was actively stealing and whether that was an appropriate action (which, by the way, stealing is in the 10 commandments)
You have to judge their actions in order to decide whether you want to be around that person. Stealing is just as wrong as homosexuality, as is coveting, lusting, ungodly anger, pride, etc. Sin is sin in a sense.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Miss Martha
Apparently one of us is wrong, and I do not assume to know what God's view on these things is. I do not claim that my opinion is as good as law and I could be wrong. I just believe, from the information I have gathered in my short and happy life, that I am not in any position at all to tell anyone else how they need to live their life in order to be "upright". I believe that gays and lesbians are overall great people and that they can be Christians and that it is very possible they are born the way they are. Who am I to say that their lifestyle isn't right.
I think I can tell you what I think God clearly says in the Bible. I do not think that God came to me and spoke a revelation that my interpretation is necessarily correct, but given the evidence, I think it probably right. I am open to being wrong on a lot of things.
I could be wrong on this issue; I think it is very unlikely though. I do not hate gays or think they should be put in jail or anything. They are human beings and should be treated as human beings. As far as telling them I think they are wrong, if I really do believe they are wrong, then why should I not be able to say that, especially if I think what they are doing is disobedience to God. I think they will find their ultimate happiness in obeying God, not disobeying him. It would be the same thing if they were stealing. It is disobedience to God. It would be the same if they were committing adultery. It just seems like since it is homosexuality, then it is wrong to speak what you believe. Is it because you do not think the issue is clear that you think I should just keep my mouth shut?
Not correct.
You are claiming to know the correct interpretation of your God's words. I make no such claim; in fact, my position on the subject is that, in the question at hand in the specific, and to many people across the earth in general, your God is entirely irrelevant. Interpretation is subjective; claiming absolute knowledge of a subjective topic is, indeed, arrogant.
Further, even assuming your charges are correct, and that I may or may not be arrogant and/or judgmental, I am not the one whose religion claims a Supreme Being who frowns on such behaviors. Unless you're misrepresenting yourself as Christian...yours does. One or both of us may be a complete PIA to our fellow man, but in the Christian belief system, you carry a further penalty.
If your beliefs are correct, I'll be seeing you at the eternal barbecue. With any luck, it will at least be a decent Carolina-style.
I do not have nor do I claim that I have absolute knowledge. I do think God gives absolute knowledge in his Word, but yes, it must be interpreted. Some things are harder to understand and interpret than others.
Is all interpretation subjective? If you say interpretation is completely subjective, then I can interpret that to mean whatever I want. If it is subjective, how you even be sure of anything I am saying? How I be sure of anything you are saying? If there is no objective standard at all, then communication is useless and pointless. If there is no standard of absolute truth, our debate is pointless.
I think you can be gay and not live that out. I am not necessarily opposed to people having a disposition to desires for the same sex. A person can live with those desires all his/her life, but not give in to them. Thus a person can be "gay" in the sense that they have homosexual desires, but trust Christ and fight those feelings and depend on God and trust that His Word is true, so they would not go to hell. ANY person who continually lives in a sinful lifestyle with no repentance or change will go to hell; it doesn' matter if you are a homosexual or straight.
I'm still waiting for someone to explain why conservative Christians focus on homosexuality to the exclusion of other things, like gluttony, tax evasion, or dumping elders in nursing homes and ignoring them.
You obviously haven't been to church in a while. All are frequent topics, not "excluded". Some outsiders seem to focus on Christians' stance on homosexuality to the exclusion of other stances.
You obviously haven't been to church in a while. All are frequent topics, not "excluded". Some outsiders seem to focus on Christians' stance on homosexuality to the exclusion of other stances.
I don't know, Johnnyreb. 15 out of your 48 posts are about homosexuality. Reduced even further 15 out of 19 of your religious posts are about homosexuality. You haven't posted on here since March and these few months later when you do post it's about....homosexuality.
Maybe the church doesn't focus on it, but you sure seem to.
I do not have nor do I claim that I have absolute knowledge. I do think God gives absolute knowledge in his Word, but yes, it must be interpreted. Some things are harder to understand and interpret than others.
And yet, you claim to know what he means to say re: homosexuality, despite no first hand knowledge (hearing it from a primary source) and despite your secondary source (the Christian Bible) being at best a translation, and a worst a really bad translation.
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Originally Posted by natewood3
Is all interpretation subjective? If you say interpretation is completely subjective, then I can interpret that to mean whatever I want.
And no doubt will, given the leaps that have been made thus far.
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Originally Posted by natewood3
If it is subjective, how you even be sure of anything I am saying? How I be sure of anything you are saying? If there is no objective standard at all, then communication is useless and pointless. If there is no standard of absolute truth, our debate is pointless.
Not at all. Communication can be effective on a number of levels even when there is no standard. When my preverbal preschooler ran shrieking to me on the playground, it might have meant that the swing she wanted was occupied, or it might have meant "that toddler obviously wants to kill me and take my toys!" Either way, though it was imprecise and open to interpretation, I could correctly assume it to mean my intervention would keep Very Bad Things from happening.
As for the pointlessness of this debate...from my POV, it's a tolerable way to waste an afternoon probably better spent in research for my current project, or at the very least doing laundry. I've no idea what your point is. This being the internet, for all I know you're Randy "Duke" Cunningham, whiling away the hours at his current place of residence, or possibly a 16 year old boy named Josh Evans.
Is there a reason I should have been?
Perhaps it wasn't clear-- and for that I take responsibility-- that I was referring to conservative Christians railing in public about homosexuality, and leaving aside less inconvenient topics (like elder neglect, gluttony, taxes, cruelty to animals, selling all one's posessions and following him).
I don't know, Johnnyreb. 15 out of your 48 posts are about homosexuality. Reduced even further 15 out of 19 of your religious posts are about homosexuality. You haven't posted on here since March and these few months later when you do post it's about....homosexuality.
Maybe the church doesn't focus on it, but you sure seem to.
Yup - stereotype Christianity because of one.
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