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I completely disagree with this. The Bible in many ways is very self explanatory so that even a babe can understand it. I'm not going to go to deep in to this because I haven't studied for awhile. But I VERY much disagree with your post and some of the other stuff you have said in here.
from islamic point of view , we have the same prophecy about israil and thier existence in jerusleam nowadays
First, clearly understand I am not your "barely know the Bible" unbeliever and I DO know what I am talking about. I can hold my own if I choose to. No anger. Just making this clear. Don't want anyone calling the Feds to close this thread.
Second, can you please provide some backup to these claims you make about Muslims trying to open the east gate and failing? Thank you. That sounds interesting.
Third, Ezekiel predicted Egypt would be desolate for 40 years [in the past] and that Tyre would not be an existing city to this day. Both predictions failed. Egypt has NEVER been completely desolate in the 2,400 years since Ezekiel's prediction and Tyre exists today where it always has even if its sea extension is no longer there.
Finally, Matthew makes up a non existent prophesy stating that it was predicted Jesus would be a Nazarene. There is no correspondent Old Testament prophesy. He claims that the Herod killed innocent babies in trying to kill Jesus (a story only told in the book of Matthew and nowhere else in the NT or even other historical books from that era, notably Josephus who write at lengths about Herod and his deeds) and then has the gaul to say it fulfilled Jeremiah 31:15 when the CONTEXT of the verses has NOTHING to do with any future slaughter of babies, but rather, a historical lament over the exile of the Judean population (the "cream of the crop") by the Babylonians. Finally, while he specifically did not claim this was a prophesy, he leaves the idea out there that Micah 5 was predicting Jesus and Christians near and far point that chapter during the Christmas season as roof that Jesus was predicted. Fact is, the same chapter's context proves otherwise.
The Egypt prophecy I believe is tied into the return of the Jews to Israel. If that is the case, its fulfillment would have to be in the future.
The city of Tyre prophecy did not fail. Today the orgianl city of Tyre remains destroyed. It is an Archeological site. There is another city called Tyre and is located about 4 an a half miles away. Yet the orginal city was never rebuilt, and it's population was either killed off or takin into slavery.
Matthew did not make up the prophecy of Jesus being a Nazarene. In the Book of Isa 11:1 it states that one would be raised up coming out of the stem of Jesse. A Nazarene is one who comes from the town of nazareth. The stem of Jesse are those who live in Nazareth.
The fact that Herods killing of children did not make it into the history books should come as no surprise. Most of the Roman records were lost long ago. Yet the bible speaks of many things that have not made it into the history books. The story of David for one, and Israels two Kingdoms. Skeptics for years said the story was just a fable and a myth. Yet recent discoveries reveal that King David and Israels two Kingdoms really did exist, and such skeptics now have been silenced.
The Egypt prophecy I believe is tied into the return of the Jews to Israel. If that is the case, its fulfillment would have to be in the future.
No Campbell. The context of that prophecy places it squarely in the time of King Nebuchadnezzar a historical figure. Egypt never was desolate for 40 years then or any time before or after that time.
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The city of Tyre prophecy did not fail. Today the orgianl city of Tyre remains destroyed. It is an Archeological site. There is another city called Tyre and is located about 4 an a half miles away. Yet the orginal city was never rebuilt, and it's population was either killed off or takin into slavery.
Where did you get this from Campbell? The city of Tyre still sits right where it has always been. Was seiged and attacked over it history but rose again and exists to this very day under the same name in the same place contrary to Ezekiel's prediction it would never rise again, implying it would only be a memory. In fact, Ezekiel's prediction of Tyre's destruction was to be at the hand of Nebuchadnezzar who laid seige to it for 13 years, but failed to take the city and had to make a compromise with the inhabitants. As a result, he had to go beat up on Egypt to find money to pay his troops. It was Alexander who destroyed the island part of the city, but mainland Tyre continued to exist and still exists to this day.
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Matthew did not make up the prophecy of Jesus being a Nazarene. In the Book of Isa 11:1 it states that one would be raised up coming out of the stem of Jesse. A Nazarene is one who comes from the town of nazareth. The stem of Jesse are those who live in Nazareth.
Jesse was from Nazareth or Bethlehem? These are two different places not close to one another. I think that is a stretch there, Campbell.
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The fact that Herods killing of children did not make it into the history books should come as no surprise. Most of the Roman records were lost long ago. Yet the bible speaks of many things that have not made it into the history books. The story of David for one, and Israels two Kingdoms. Skeptics for years said the story was just a fable and a myth. Yet recent discoveries reveal that King David and Israels two Kingdoms really did exist, and such skeptics now have been silenced.
We still have Josephus' works though. In his great work, Antiquities, he writes extensively about Herod and all his evil deeds. For some reason he never mentions this one and it would have been his most dastard deed if it actually did happen. Forget the Romans then. Not even a historian from his own country who was bent on painting him as some evil villain did not not include this act. Besides, this was not what I even pointed out. I pointed out that Jeremiah did NOT predict such a thing, yet Matthew claims he did and that is patently false, disingenuous and interestingly suspicious.
No Campbell. The context of that prophecy places it squarely in the time of King Nebuchadnezzar a historical figure. Egypt never was desolate for 40 years then or any time before or after that time.
Where did you get this from Campbell? The city of Tyre still sits right where it has always been. Was seiged and attacked over it history but rose again and exists to this very day under the same name in the same place contrary to Ezekiel's prediction it would never rise again, implying it would only be a memory. In fact, Ezekiel's prediction of Tyre's destruction was to be at the hand of Nebuchadnezzar who laid seige to it for 13 years, but failed to take the city and had to make a compromise with the inhabitants. As a result, he had to go beat up on Egypt to find money to pay his troops. It was Alexander who destroyed the island part of the city, but mainland Tyre continued to exist and still exists to this day.
Jesse was from Nazareth or Bethlehem? These are two different places not close to one another. I think that is a stretch there, Campbell.
We still have Josephus' works though. In his great work, Antiquities, he writes extensively about Herod and all his evil deeds. For some reason he never mentions this one and it would have been his most dastard deed if it actually did happen. Forget the Romans then. Not even a historian from his own country who was bent on painting him as some evil villain did not not include this act. Besides, this was not what I even pointed out. I pointed out that Jeremiah did NOT predict such a thing, yet Matthew claims he did and that is patently false, disingenuous and interestingly suspicious.
So the prophecy places it squarely in the time of King Nebuchadnezzar. So what? If you had actually taken the time to read the prophecy, it does not say that Nebuchadnezzar would himself fulfill the prophecy. The prophecy states that God would raise up (MANY) nations to destroy Tyre. Ezekiel 26:3 I am against you oh Tyre, and I will bring (many nations against you,) It should be obvious that many nations means something more then just Nebuchadnezzar. He was just one part of those many nations.
If the modern city of Tyre today is exactly where it was when the city fell, then it should be under the sea right now. The city fell to Alexander the Great in 332 B.C. Alexander had to build a land bridge a half mile out into the sea, and it required tens of thousands of men to do this. In 1170 a Jewish traveler named Benjamin of Tudela stated in his diary that when he was in the New City of Tyre, he ascend it's walls and could see where ancient Tyre use to be, however, the sea has now covered it.
The prophecy states that Jesus would be born in Bethlehem. Yet they called Him the Nazarene, because he lived there. That's not a stretch, it is a fact. I was born in Evergreen Park. Yet I lived in Chicago. It's not that complicated.
There are many acts of violence that have been lost to history. To think that every evil act done by Herod was fully recorded by Josephus would be a stretch.
You are a perfect example of why your religion is one of faith my friend. All I see in your responses are:
"the Bible says..."
"the Bible is clear..."
"In the Bibe it says..."
It's no different than me saying I believe Cinderella existed "because the book about the story of Cinderella says..."
Not everyone sees the Bible as you do and for all the reasons you place solid faith in it others find reason to reject faith in it. Your opinion on it is as subjective as mine would be about a myth about, say, Hercules who may actually have lived.
There used to be an atheist on Lycos.com years ago when I was a Christian who used to always ask me to prove the Bible without using the Bible in my responses. Talk about a tall order. I can see what he means now.
The problem for you is the Bible writes history before it happens, and that history connot be denied. Because it is true. From the Jews returning to Israel, to their retaking Jerusalem, to the sealing of Jerusalems East gate. The one thing these prophecies all have in common, is they are all true. And that is a truth the world does not want to believe or hear. The fact is the Bible continually is being confirmed by historical finds. After a while you have to ask yourself, if the Book is continually being proven, at what point do you say I don't care? If the Bible says all these detailed events will happen and then they do. Do you just continually look the other way and pretend they don't? I have faith in the Bible, because the Bible has proven itself by fulfilled prophecies. Now you may have a Book that talks about Cinderella, but I don't see a real Cinderella. I have a Book that talks about the Jews retuning to Israel in the last days. And I see Jews in Israel today. And I have a Book that tells us that they will take back Jerusalem and control it. And I see Jews who have taken back Jerusalem and Control it today. And I have a Book that tells us Jerusalems East Gate will have a Porch Gate added to it, and it will be sealed, and all attempts to open it will fail. And I see Jerusalem has a sealed East gate, and all attempts to open it have failed, just as the Bible said they would. So you can keep you Cinderella book, I think I will hold onto my Bible.
hmm given the choice between your eternal salvation and our eternal torture which one would you choose? I mean If god gave you the choice to stop this apocalypse from happening would you do it?
So the prophecy places it squarely in the time of King Nebuchadnezzar. So what? If you had actually taken the time to read the prophecy, it does not say that Nebuchadnezzar would himself fulfill the prophecy. The prophecy states that God would raise up (MANY) nations to destroy Tyre. Ezekiel 26:3 I am against you oh Tyre, and I will bring (many nations against you,) It should be obvious that many nations means something more then just Nebuchadnezzar. He was just one part of those many nations.
The mention of 'many nations' cannot be used as an excuse. In ancient times, especially when dealing with the Bible, there was often an alliance of nations that would go into battle against another nation or nations. Armies were often made up of mercenaries from other nations. In the book of Nahum, for example, God is upset at the Edomites because of their alliance with Babylon to help sack Jerusalem. Ezekiel 26:7 makes it clear that Babylon's Nebuchadnezzar would head this alliance.
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If the modern city of Tyre today is exactly where it was when the city fell, then it should be under the sea right now. The city fell to Alexander the Great in 332 B.C. Alexander had to build a land bridge a half mile out into the sea, and it required tens of thousands of men to do this. In 1170 a Jewish traveler named Benjamin of Tudela stated in his diary that when he was in the New City of Tyre, he ascend it's walls and could see where ancient Tyre use to be, however, the sea has now covered it.
The city of Tyre had two parts to it. One part sat on the mainland and the other a half mile out to sea projecting from the mainland city. Alexander laid siege to the island portion of the city and savagely sacked it, however, the mainland portion of the city survived and continue to exist up to this very day and was even mentioned twice in the New Testament and a place where Paul made a stop in his journeys.
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The prophecy states that Jesus would be born in Bethlehem. Yet they called Him the Nazarene, because he lived there. That's not a stretch, it is a fact. I was born in Evergreen Park. Yet I lived in Chicago. It's not that complicated.
Ok, the prophecy stats Jesus would be born in Bethlehem. I am not disputing that at the moment. I am asking where does Matthew find an Old Testament prophecy that says he would be called a Nazarene?
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There are many acts of violence that have been lost to history. To think that every evil act done by Herod was fully recorded by Josephus would be a stretch.
Mentioning the killing a bunch of little children in one of your districts by a maniacal despot would have been a stretch. Josephus wrote far less evil acts by Herod. To think this was not have been an important one to mention would have been the stretch.
The problem for you is the Bible writes history before it happens, and that history connot be denied. Because it is true. From the Jews returning to Israel, to their retaking Jerusalem, to the sealing of Jerusalems East gate. The one thing these prophecies all have in common, is they are all true. And that is a truth the world does not want to believe or hear. The fact is the Bible continually is being confirmed by historical finds. After a while you have to ask yourself, if the Book is continually being proven, at what point do you say I don't care? If the Bible says all these detailed events will happen and then they do. Do you just continually look the other way and pretend they don't? I have faith in the Bible, because the Bible has proven itself by fulfilled prophecies. Now you may have a Book that talks about Cinderella, but I don't see a real Cinderella. I have a Book that talks about the Jews retuning to Israel in the last days. And I see Jews in Israel today. And I have a Book that tells us that they will take back Jerusalem and control it. And I see Jews who have taken back Jerusalem and Control it today. And I have a Book that tells us Jerusalems East Gate will have a Porch Gate added to it, and it will be sealed, and all attempts to open it will fail. And I see Jerusalem has a sealed East gate, and all attempts to open it have failed, just as the Bible said they would. So you can keep you Cinderella book, I think I will hold onto my Bible.
Ok Campbell.
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