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Hope everyone had a peaceful and happy Christmas and New Year.
All the talk of food and drink over the Christmas period - Guiness, Kool-Aid, "Knowing your Sage (and Onions?)", meaty-explanations, chicken, turkey and cheeeburgers has left me with quite a lot to digest :-) call it "cutesy easy-agreeability" I don't mind - I agree with the spirit of keeping things light-hearted: even though this is a serious topic to many for many reasons, humour can help the healing process whichever angle we're coming from, IMO.
I'd like to wrap up one or two outstanding Q's aimed at me on-thread, then to share a smattering of links from both "sides" below to allow people to make up their own minds, and to follow their own hearts - my heart and mind remains open to new developments as they appear on this thread and elsewhere, and I'm always reachable by DM if anyone has further specific questions, but I've got nothing to prove to anyone here - the truth always "outs" so I'm confident all will be revealed in time...
@EOF: On what I referred to as an "old battle" - it wasn't my intention to offer "misinformation": "battle/feud" was perhaps too dramatic a word to express my interpretation of events: David C. Lane has certainly been aware of SGO at least since 1995 when SGO's apology letter was published:
...and as recently as 2008, when DC Lane's wife, Dr. Andrea Diem-Lane republished her 1995 book, "The Guru in America - The Influence of Radhasoami on New Religions"
in which a chapter (starting page 136 of the PDF) is devoted to comparing early MP works with RS works.
The e-book also sheds some light on the 1964 visit of Charan Singh to Minneapolis:
Quote:
The first Radhasoami Satsang Beas guru to visit America was Charan Singh in 1964. Charan Singh's trip was even better received than Kirpal Singh's, with the Beas guru attracting consistently larger numbers in his audience. This was primarily because Radhasoami Satsang Beas is well established in India and has had roots in America since 1911. Unlike Kirpal Singh's trip, though, Charan Singh's tour was not advertised. The Beas guru also did not publicly present his message the way that Kirpal Singh had done in 1955 and 1963. Indeed, Charan Singh's one and only impromptu television interview on May 28, 1964 with a news reporter in Minneapolis, Minnesota, caused a bit of a stir because it was so unusual. A verbatim transcript of the brief interview and a full account of Charan Singh's travel to America are outlined in the book, The Master Answers Audiences in America (Beas: Radha Soami Satsang, 1966).
...so I'm now open to the possibility that "exposed" could have meant "read about in the paper" or "seen on TV" - my previous interpretation of the MP 2002 Website "exposed = face-to-face-meeting" may be wrong. As I said, my mind remains open to new developments, inner and outer, and elsewhere. I have a copy of "The Master Answers Audiences in America" arriving in the post shortly, so will be able to elaborate more perhaps after reading it.
The above links are from a parallel thread that developed for a while on Yahoo Groups...
...though the last post directs back to here on CDF.
My current understanding, based on what is written in the FAQ within the 220-page 2002 website article, is that SGO did not need an outer Master, but followed Sri Darwin Gross for 12 years to demonstrate the principle of devotion:
Quote:
In May of 1964 he was exposed to the august Master Charan Singh Ji of the Radhasoami Satsang, Beas, who visited Minneapolis, Minnesota, while on a worldwide tour. Growing up highly intuitive, he preferred the spiritual realities his rich inner life afforded him, beyond the restrictions and lateral development of the highly educated mind. After serving in the United States Army in combat during the Vietnam War, his spiritual experiences accelerated, and a deeply rooted compassion for the suffering of the unenlightened soul became his own.
Sri Gary joined Eckankar on January 17, 1973, and spent approximately twelve years on this path. He received the Alaya Lok initiation from his teacher, Darwin Gross, who at that time was no longer affiliated with Eckankar. Sri Gary is a married man with three stepchildren. He is a retired painting contractor who now serves full time as the current living Master of MasterPath.
To answer the question, “Who is Sri Gary’s Master?,” we must leave the topic of Sri Gary, the man, and enter the topic of Sri Gary, the spiritual being. On January 17, 1985, Sri Gary received initiation from Anami Purush (the great formless power or Lord of the highest spiritual region). After a period of “soul searching” that most Saints experience, he began his teaching mission with the birth of MasterPath in August, 1987.
Sri Gary Olsen is a Swateh or Param (natural born) Saint. His Master is Anami Purush (the Formless Power, the Divine). He gives all credit for his enlightenment to Anami Purush. His affiliation in this life with Christianity, astrology and numerology, his study of Surat Shabda Yoga, and his years of study in Eckankar were all utilized to experientially bring him to a direct understanding of the various mind sets and psychic influences of the souls with which he would be working. His reputation for being a perfect disciple, loyal to his outer teacher, Darwin Gross, exemplified the unwavering humility of a True Saint.
On a slightly lighter vibe, a thread of The Tao Bums Forum, has some banter on a few current light and sound masters, including Gary Olsen / Gary Oldman / Gary Coleman, the Vietnamese female satguru Supreme Master Ching Hai, and (deep breath) God-Man Avatar 'Sri Da Bubba Free John Samraj Franklin Jones Da Kalki Da Avabhasa Adi Da Love-Ananda "The Bright", going on...
@Still_Kicking, @EOF, @Violet, @SoulPatriot, and others earlier, thanks for engaging my mind, and for rightly calling me to task when I haven't been up-to-mark of accuracy required to post on this thread, it's been a pleasure regardless, and I've learned a lot, especially as this was my first stint at posting on any forum anywhere.
@Still_Kicking, the post that made me go "wow" was actually this one #983 on this thread -
and reminded me very much of the way SK, my dearly beloved chela-friend who died in Dec-2003 when his plane crashed, urged personal responsibility to me in my early days on MP. SK had spent 12 years studying with someone he had previously believed to be an enlightened master, and being counted amongst his "inner circle", at which point he realized that his previous master was a fraud, and came to study with Sri Gary, so, as mentioned earlier by others on this thread, perhaps this form of "personal recommendation by friends" is the reason why I and so many chelas trust and devotedly follow who we do: because we trust our friends. But SK's experience with his previous guru does IMHO have parallels with your current experience, @EOF, so I do relate, and am not trying to invalidate you in any way, please understand that.
I respect the courage it takes for those who have chosen to leave their chosen Master, as I can see what one would need to tackle within oneself to do that...I hope everyone finds the truth they are looking for in this new year and new decade.
take care,
peace and love
TOM fka PM21
A couple of youtube links to end with background info only, not point-proving:
Some Light and Sound referred to in this beautifully illustrated story of the Legend of Atlantis:
Songbird was drinking from a table
But songbird you just flew away
Everybody's gotta feel the weight of death sometime
And find out what it's like to be left behind
Sometimes you don't get a chance to ask where or why
So let it break the magic beauty of your fragile mind
And let it break the magic beauty of your fragile mind
It's not a sign of weakness
When you're searching for the places where the memories flow
There may come a time when you rearrange and may leave those memories
You've gotta let them go
Everybody's gotta feel the weight of death sometime
And find out what it's like to be left behind
Sometimes you don't get a chance to ask where or why
Let it break the magic beauty of your fragile mind (x4)
Stay strong
Move on
Keep on
Stay strong
Move on
Keep on
Last edited by PeaceMaker21; 01-01-2010 at 09:32 AM..
Reason: typos and embedded links completed
PM21,
Gary is not a chosen master to me, if he uses/used tactics of deceit as a part of getting me to join-up to the MP, to me that is well just predatory and narcissistic. And a very strong indication that he is not what he says he is.
As to your other point about leveraging another's (SK's) experience and friendship for justifying and extending some level of faith towards Gary in making the decision to getting onto the MP, that is of course your prerogative to do. Although I know that Gary has stated that one should not join the MP just because you have a friend on the MP.I too originally got on the MP at the prodding of a friend of mine who was sincerely looking for a master, and who proselytized the MP to me. But in the end it was not a true decision of my own, as I was made vulnerable by a undiagnosed physical problem but also a manipulation of the proselytizing, and these were contributing factors as to why I left the MP the 1st time.
So you see since it wasn't a pure need to join the MP or find a master, I was simply just manipulated, in no small part due to an illness and my own naivety, that's it, nothing more. That should give anyone pause. My repeated returning was a symptom of the cult hopping syndrome and programming received to go through this "cult of the shadow" and genuine desire to get my life back on track, unfortunately I didn't have the understanding and resources like this blog at my disposal back then. As I mentioned I've been away from the MP for ~3 years now.
The fault ultimately lies with me in the end as it was my own naivety / blindness / denial whatever you want to call it, that led me to the MP, but that doesn't obfuscate that there is insufficient proof that Gary is a true master. Since in the end you're betting the farm that he is what he says he is.
I'd like to wrap up one or two outstanding Q's aimed at me on-thread, then to share a smattering of links from both "sides" below to allow people to make up their own minds, and to follow their own hearts
Which links represent the MP "side" of things? Interestingly I didn't find anything in support of Gary or MasterPath at the links you posted. Quite the opposite actually.
Unless you're referring to your copies of MP's own former website, along with the quotes you posted about how Gary didn't need a living master because he was born a saint, and the great "Anami Purush" is actually the one who initiated him...oh, and Gary was simply humouring Darwin Gross with his 12 years of devotion, which of course is a testament to Gary's great humility?!?! Oy.
But seriously, exactly what evidence is being presented to support those claims (or others)? How can MP's former website be considered an objective part of your thought process? Couldn't you or I just as easily create websites that say we are "natural born saints" and Anami initiated us? If we did, could others reference our websites as "fact"?
Quote:
Originally Posted by PeaceMaker21
@EOF: On what I referred to as an "old battle" - it wasn't my intention to offer "misinformation": "battle/feud" was perhaps too dramatic a word to express my interpretation of events: David C. Lane has certainly been aware of SGO at least since 1995 when SGO's apology letter was published:
...and as recently as 2008, when DC Lane's wife, Dr. Andrea Diem-Lane republished her 1995 book, "The Guru in America - The Influence of Radhasoami on New Religions"
in which a chapter (starting page 136 of the PDF) is devoted to comparing early MP works with RS works.
No one ever said David Lane was not "aware of" Gary Olsen, Peacemaker. Was that your take-away thought from our posts? If so, you're definitely having a reading-comprehension problem on this thread. This is yet another example of you posting an argument about something which is not in dispute.
David Lane exposing Radha Soami plagiarism (Gary's and others) and the subsequent apology/recognition by Gary are not news to anyone here. Lane's writings (and his wife's) have cited examples of plagiarism and false claims involving self-appointed "gurus" like yours, but there's certainly no particular vendetta against Gary Olsen's specific brand of spiritual fraud. That was the point, and that was why your dismissive comments about Lane were called into question.
Now, if you have thoughts or arguments to share on the concepts you read about in "The Kirpal Statistic" or "The Unknowing Sage"...(assuming you've read them)...well then, THAT would be relevant to the heart of some of the questions that have been asked.
Because your posts are very nice Peacemaker, but that's just it. It seems like they're typically avoidant of the actual questions and criticisms raised. I'm not sure whether to attribute that to a conscious decision, an inadvertent self-programmed resistance, or if this avoidance characteristic is common to someone in MP or cults. But I do hope the best for you.
Hey All,
Spent last night going over some definitions on Wikipedia that shed some light on the tactics that I have witnessed while I was on the masterpath, (MP), employed by either Gary Olsen, and/or others on the MP.
The result of this activity was that I not only had greater understanding of such behaviors, but my own cognitive functioning increased dramatically, which indicated to me that I was influenced by these tactics and the truth of what I read set my mind free from the illusion/delusion that I found myself stuck in, namely the MP and Gary Olsen's tactics. In plane simple English clear thinking returned. (Yaaaayyyyy)
My recommendation is to read each of the pages in full to see if you too see something that fits with your experiences on the MP. Following Occam's Razor which is the principle that "entities must not be multiplied beyond necessity" and the conclusion thereof, that the simplest explanation or strategy tends to be the best one.
I started with the word denial (see link). I could see my own issues and then I saw how it is used as a tactic and strategy by manipulators on unsuspecting folks. I actually looked through all of the links at the bottom of the page on Denial, a very informative activity.
Of particular note Psychological manipulation since it really spelled out a lot of what I saw take place on the MP.
Another interesting one was Blame, particularly about its use as a propaganda technique.
Self-fulfilling prophecy, which I had seen used multiple times to explain things that people experienced, very informative, and freeing to read that one.
Another tactic that had been used on me from time to time by MP students was the Non-apology Apology -- An example of a non-apology apology would be to say "I'm sorry that you felt insulted" to someone who has been offended by a statement. This apology does not admit that there was anything wrong with the remarks made, and, additionally, it subtly insinuates that the person taking offense was excessively thin-skinned or irrational in taking offense at the remarks in the first place. - I have seen Gary use this tactic at meetings, accusing people of being overly thin skinned, or people were lacking in humor or irrational in their responses to issues that are raised.
Also here is the really important thing I came to see, since I had spent a great deal of time reading and understanding what Faqir Chand had said in "The Unknowing Sage" in comparison to Gary Olsen. After all of that work I read about the True Believer syndrome, that finally broke the false belief, at least for myself I was holding onto about Gary as a master, either on the outer or the inner.
Notes/Comments on The Unknowing Sage vs. Gary Olsen
In my previous post I mentioned that I had investigated "The Unknowing Sage" mini article looking for differences between what Faqir Chand had said and what Gary Olsen was doing, here is what I've uncovered. There are some interesting things that he has to say about Guru’s and Great Saints and how they should be followed.
My profound thanks to Dr. David Lane for writing this book / article.
I also want to point out that Gary has also stated that he is the reincarnation of Sawan Singh Ji, if so then he must adhere to the following statement attributed to Sawan to Faquir Chand; "Faqir, carry on your work without any fear. I shall stand by you."
So on Page 99 of "The Unknowing Sage" Faquir Chand states, “I have never said or done anything for any selfish motive. I never throw dust in your eyes to get name or fame for this short life.”
My Comments: When I compare this against Gary Olsen and his actions he has clearly violated this admonition to not do something to get a name. All you have to do is here is to see the self proclamations about his being a “god-man”, and then there is the website where he places himself with other spiritual leaders of alleged spiritual note.
Humility, it would seem is not a part of Gary’s calling card, that much is clear. If Gary Olsen was a Sat Guru, then his deeds, (see behavior), would be above reproach. There have been numerous examples cited here on this blog where this is not the case. In examples from @End_Of_Faith, she states that she lived and worked very closely with the Olsen’s and knows that Gary is not a Sat Guru. If someone spends that amount of time with Gary and his behavior is shown not to be of the highest standard then by definition he cannot be Sat (= True) Guru.
Page 109 "The Unknowing Sage": “This is also a fact - that I need money for Manavta Mandir - but I never wish to adopt fraudulent methods for the collection of money. If anybody wishes to help the Mandir happily, he may, but if one does not want then one may not. I care not for the position of a preceptor. I have fear and my life trembles at the thought of the harvest of bad deeds, for we all must reap the harvest of our deeds. If you live upon the hard earnings of others, you deceive others and you indulge in acts of fraud for your selfish motives. Then where would you go? Who would save you when great Saints themselves could not remain safe?”
My comment: In comparison I am reading the very words of another Light and Sound master, a higher one IMO, who actually points out that to deceive others and or to live upon the hard earnings of others is fraught with the seeds of bad karma, something that Gary has violated yet again another admonishment to stay true to, let alone that even Great Saints are not above this direction.
Page 100 "The Unknowing Sage": “If what I have experienced in life has been the experience of other gurus and Saints, then I would say these gurus, whosoever they be, did not do anything good to us. They befooled us, exploited us and looted us for their own name, fame and for establishing their religious estates.”
Page 71 “The Unknowing Sage”: "Now, after having a long experience of my life, I feel that most of the past mahatmas and the present gurus by keeping the secret Truth unrevealed/undisclosed have been unfair to the public and have often exploited them. They have taken undue advantage of the ignorance of the people. They have built their own big buildings. They have made air-conditioned rooms for themselves. These gurus enjoy themselves and the poor people being ignorant give their hard earned money to these gurus at the cost of their comforts and those of their children. I do not deny I receive donations, but I personally do not use even a single penny out of these donations.
Guru means Knowledge; without guru we cannot achieve anything. Our mother is our guru, our father is our guru, our friend is our guru and the world around us is our guru. But the Real Guru who makes the Self free from the bondage of this world is called the Sat Guru. And to attain the Reality the Sat Guru must be a perfect man. Nowadays this guruism has become a source of earning one's keep.
My spiritual Father had asked me to change the teachings. I do not know what should I change. The writings did not reveal the Truth to me. Denunciations of my forefathers in the writings of the Saints pained me, but I had a firm faith in His Holiness Hazur Data Dayal Ji Maharaj. His Holiness had directed me, "Faqir, change the mode of preaching before abandoning this mortal frame."
The change is, "O man, your real helper is your own Self and your own Faith, but you are badly mistaken and believe that somebody from without comes to help you. No Hazrat Mohammed, no Lord Rama, Lord Krishna or any God or goddess or Guru comes from without. This entire game is that of your impressions and suggestions which are in-grained upon your mind through your eyes and ears and of your Faith and Belief." This is the change that I am ordained to bring about."
My comments: This is exactly what Gary Olsen has done, he exploited and fooled people to gain money and build his home with olive trees, on the backs of poorer people than himself. This admonition is not my standard per se but one that has been established by another light and sound master, and one from what I can discern who operated from a higher plane of ethics than Gary Olsen can attribute to himself.
To me at least when a person projects their own god power onto another (e.g. projecting this onto another’s image in their imagination) then they are pushing away that aspect from themselves, essentially giving away their own god power to another, and not realizing that they are doing so in the process. To me this is another form of spiritual suicide and condemning oneself to the servitude of another, Gary Olsen and the masterpath in this case, but also true of other cults as well.
In the end I take this from my understanding so far; Yes ask for god’s help and assistance, but don't bother projecting that upon someone else and give that away, it only makes you a victim.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I hope this helps others as much as it helped me to go through and write this for myself.
So on Page 99 of "The Unknowing Sage" Faquir Chand states, “I have never said or done anything for any selfish motive. I never throw dust in your eyes to get name or fame for this short life.”
My Comments: When I compare this against Gary Olsen and his actions he has clearly violated this admonition to not do something to get a name. All you have to do is here is to see the self proclamations about his being a “god-man”, and then there is the website where he places himself with other spiritual leaders of alleged spiritual note.
Humility, it would seem is not a part of Gary’s calling card, that much is clear.
Yes, Gary doesn't seem to have an ounce of humility. Just recently I gained access to the book "Introduction to MasterPath". One of the things that immediately stood out was the capitalization of pronouns when referring to Gary:
"I want all my students to know in their hearts that their Master supports them one hundred percent, that He is trying to give them the greatest gift that could possibly be given without any strings attached, whatsoever." (p. 48)
This sentence is one example of the capitalization of "He" and "Him" when referring to Gary throughout the book. But it's also an untrue sentence, because there are clearly strings attached to the "gift"...monthly dues paid on time, for one.
Maybe the capitalization thing isn't a big deal to people, but I see it as yet another example how Gary lacks humility, and refers to himself on the level of a deity. The bible refers to Jesus this way. But I checked in my other books and on websites, and could find no other "gurus", light and sound gurus or otherwise, whose books/writings capitalize "He", "Her, "She", etc. when referring to their master or guru. Not Paramahansa Yogananda, Ching Hai, Harold Klemp, or even John-Roger. No, this particular stressor of self-importance is only found in MasterPath!
As an observer I'm also still finding this whole "Inner Master" concept misleading or confusing. Particularly after some of the chelas have said here that the "Inner Master" actually represents themselves or their own god-self or whatever (I think Allan1015 stressed this idea). But how can that be, when - as I believe end_of_faith once mentioned - in Gary's own words the "Inner Master" looks exactly like him?
"When the Inner Master manifests to anyone, It will have the exact same features of the Outer Master. The Outer Master is, as Jesus taught, the Word (or Sound Current) made flesh, and the Inner Master is the Sound personified...You will recognize the Inner Master because He will look exactly like me, the mustache and everything else. If I shave my mustache right now, then Garji will be seen with no mustache - that is how you will recognize Him." (p. 58)
He's also supposed to be all glimmery and shiny like a thousand stars. Whatever, the point is that I don't understand how Allan1015 and other current chelas could possibly claim that Gary's image is not involved in their spiritual practice. Clarifications welcome.
Last edited by Violet11; 01-08-2010 at 02:32 PM..
Reason: spelling
Another thing about the "Inner Master"'s mustache idea from p. 58 that I quoted in the post above...this is an example of how it could be easily proven/disproven without a doubt whether Gary or his mystical power is involved with the student's consciousness experiences.
All he would have to do is tell the chela that the next time they see him on the "inner", he will look different in some way. He'll shave his whole head or dye it blue or something. Then the chela would demonstrate that they saw Gary's hair is blue, or that there's a Mike Tyson tiger tattoo on Gary's eye, or whatever the physical change is. Phone up the Randi Foundation and Gary's got himself another grove of olive trees.
Of course this will never happen because Gary would never volunteer such an experiment. And I doubt even the most pragmatic chela would ever dare to suggest it to the great "master". Gotta have faith.
Violet11,
Yeah that was thing that I pulled from "The Unknowing Sage" article. That all of these impressions are creations by the individual reinforcing what they believe into and onto their own minds about what they choose to believe in who is god.
The precursor is that you have to believe that Gary, or whomever, is a god-man. If you don't believe that then it this will fail in one's attempt to have inner experiences with a "god". If anything positive happens for the individual it is their faith and belief that actually creates it, not any innate power that Gary has.
Gary by his statements is actually taking credit for each individual's actual capabilities and passing them off as his own. That is a lie that he uses to take advantage of people and get their money and/or their worshiping him.
Anyway the whole thing is based on the individual impressing their own mind, essentially programming it, this is called thought reform, in order to create the inner experiences that people say what they have when they have them with Gary's image, but it is because they believe that he is a representative of god.
Again the "The Unknowing Sage" article really spells all of that out, the other stuff about denial, and related subjects essentially showed me how the mind can be so easily molded in a particular direction once one accepts one or two precepts that offered up to it. A slippery slope for sure, at least IMO. Faqir Chand really had said it best when he said that guruism was a sham to make money.
Yep Gary can't do the type of experiment you suggest anyway it is not within his power to create, not unless he can get people to believe it of course.
For me at least it doesn't matter anymore, these guys are charlatans plain and simple, and hence if reincarnation does exist, Gary will be back to be duped in another life to learn that lesson.
All the best
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Just to be clear
Oy.
