Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
Again, I will just add that I concur with what deepcynic just posted. It is correct that the materials are NOT to be made available to just anyone.
That is not correct.
Again the facts are that all books have only the same US Copyright protection as any other book
The monthly pamphlets (5 pages or so), that are meant for students and laid out in a series of topics, carry an additional disclaimer about karmic debt
Thank you, I read your post, all of it, but did read into that part.
Look, if you saw that many clones, all blond, tan, same hair, I can easily see your point. I would have made the same conclusion.
My only point is that based on the thousands of members/attendees Ive seen at satsangs, based on my reading of materials and talking to others - this is an aberration, I cant explain it but I have never seen it.
Your attempt to explain why I am not ion the 'know' doesn't match my facts and experience.
Firstly, no former chela, even those that were Gary's personal assistant so to speak, have reported anything like what you say. Second I know chelas of many ranges in years on path, they now others etc. There is nothing to substantiate yet another hidden body of knowledge or 'inner circle'
Of course, I cant disprove a negative and you can just claim deeper levels of paranoia and secrecy. The point is that this supposition is against all known indicators including former chelas.
I have already discussed in another very detailed post why some specific materials carry a karmic debt and people are cautious about sharing, as instructed.
Karmic debt?! Uh oh. I read the Master Path books while I printed them many years ago. Is that why my cat died and a tree fell on my house last year? I'm so totally doomed.
Okay, I guess you missed the point about the secret stuff. I'm pretty sure the other "chelas" with more years on the "path" aren't going to sit down with you right now and tell you every little detal they've learned after being initiated into higher levels of the group. That would be like telling someone your deepest darkest secrets on a first or second date. If/when there's an "inner circle" anywhere, it's secrets and "hidden knowledge" aren't shared with those outside the "inner circle". By definition, that's what would make it "hidden knowledge". Not sure how else to put that. Like for instance, why the need to initiate you into the "2CD" level - or 3FQs or 5HXs or whatever it is -if you already know it all?
But I think the bottom line here is that you obviously really, really, REALLY want to be on the Master Path. Go for it! The only thing I would say is that I've spent years developing my own spirituality and I have reached a conclusion with which I'm totally at peace. There was a time when I would have argued with people to justify my beliefs too. So to me, a tell-tale sign that someone might be on the wrong path is if they spend a lot of time defending and justifying. Particularly to perfect strangers. Maybe there's some tiny part of you that has doubt. Because if someone is truly finding peace, who the hell cares what people on an internet message board think of their amazing discovery?
Next you might ask - then why am I here? Because I was watching a cult documentary on TV the other day and got curious about whatever happened to the Master Path cult I knew about years ago. The posts on this message board were fascinating and entertaining to read. You're an adult and so am I. I can only speak to my experience. Yours is yours. But if it's so fantastic, I just question why you feel the need to rationalize it to me or to anyone. Life is short. Forget about me and everyone else here if we're such haters. Get "initiated" a bunch more times and move on. Go live life and love it!
Since it matters so much to you lets walk through this.
Quote:
then after they have been read, watched, digested, etc. they are supposed to be disposed of so that no one else can 'benefit' from them?
That is your statement we are discussing correct?
The context of the post was 'everything' - materials charged for books, tapes, videos- but lets say you just meant the books.
The facts is that the instruction to not let others read the materials are in the front cover of a very specific set of pamphlets. Actually you don't even pay for them directly, they are part of the monthly discourses you get. But we'll set that point aside.
So when you made your above post did you not know that the disclaimer was only in some specific documents? If you did know it was only some documents, why didn't you make that clear?
Your quote ends in a question. Did you not know the answer?
The rational provided is concerning karmic debt. This would apply in theory to all materials, but as I said only specifically called out in the pamphlets. If someone comes to my home and picks up the book, or sees me reading at starbucks, no problem. But if I purposefully and intentionally give it to someone, thats sorta prostelytyzing and I also will accumulate some karmic debt for that persons spiritual path.
You dont have to buy the karmic debt rational, Im just putting the facts out there
I cant help but observe again the lose - lose position you have around MP.
If we spread the word, push books, 'market', etc - that would be spun as we are you to increase membership and aka make money - greed
If we don't market, spread the word, push materials - thats greed as well.
Karmic debt?! Uh oh. I read the Master Path books while I printed them many years ago. Is that why my cat died and a tree fell on my house last year? I'm so totally doomed.
Next you might ask - then why am I here? Because I was watching a cult documentary on TV the other day and got curious about whatever happened to the Master Path cult I knew about years ago. The posts on this message board were fascinating and entertaining to read. You're an adult and so am I. I can only speak to my experience. Yours is yours. But if it's so fantastic, I just question why you feel the need to rationalize it to me or to anyone. Life is short. Forget about me and everyone else here if we're such haters. Get "initiated" a bunch more times and move on. Go live life and love it!
No thats not what I saying about karmic debt.
No there is no secret groups or organizations as you were implying. Perhaps you missed the point that not even former and disgruntled chelas support this theory? Of course you can argue thats it is 'secret stupid', but there is no supporting evidence anywhere.
Yes a 7th level my or may not try to help me understand some higher teaching. Most would probably not try to push something on me they don't think I'm ready for, others might get an ego boost out of doing so. There all individuals.
The need for initiation has nothing/little to do with gaining external, arcane, intellectual knowledge.
I am not arguing with anyone to 'justify' or defend my beliefs. Of course there is part of me that has doubt, I would be scared if there wasn't. And its a constant process of experimenting, testing, pushing envelope. This is specifically what MP teaches one to do. Investigate, Think! Explore and uncover my feelings etc.
It would be nice if some here would offer some intellectual or thoughtful conversation on matters. Like why monthly dues are not spiritual. But alas all I get is pithy quotes, trust me and rhetorical questions of why Buddha didn't publish books for $ (1000 years before commercial printing was available )
I don't care if anyone is convinced or not. I see no harm in explaining my truth and see if anyone offers challenging, stimulating arguments back.
Oh, I'm not on MP to find peace, not as you phrase it or might mean it. Im here to find God. Not peace, relief, etc. Any true path should be challenging, should force a great amount of introspection , facing ones shadow, etc. Emotional honesty isn'zt easy, seeing ones full self isn't easy, It shouldn't be 'easy', the best I can explain is 'hurts more, bothers me less' sensitivity to life goes up, dettachment also goers up at same time.
In any case, see it as defending, justifying if you wish, to me its more exploration, learning, gaining perspective. Not just on MP, but anti-cult thoughts and community as well
How much time am I spending? How do you judge what is too much or just curiosity? In any case to the extent it was concern, thanks, I am living my life, this is part of the play time, keeps me out of the bars and occasionally gives me something to contemplate. And deepcynic needs me, he cant make much of a case on his own, and appreciates, nay needs me to stop by and help make his case for him.
No there is no secret groups or organizations as you were implying. Perhaps you missed the point that not even former and disgruntled chelas support this theory? Of course you can argue thats it is 'secret stupid', but there is no supporting evidence anywhere.
Yes a 7th level my or may not try to help me understand some higher teaching. Most would probably not try to push something on me they don't think I'm ready for, others might get an ego boost out of doing so. There all individuals.
The need for initiation has nothing/little to do with gaining external, arcane, intellectual knowledge.
I am not arguing with anyone to 'justify' or defend my beliefs. Of course there is part of me that has doubt, I would be scared if there wasn't. And its a constant process of experimenting, testing, pushing envelope. This is specifically what MP teaches one to do. Investigate, Think! Explore and uncover my feelings etc.
It would be nice if some here would offer some intellectual or thoughtful conversation on matters. Like why monthly dues are not spiritual. But alas all I get is pithy quotes, trust me and rhetorical questions of why Buddha didn't publish books for $ (1000 years before commercial printing was available )
I don't care if anyone is convinced or not. I see no harm in explaining my truth and see if anyone offers challenging, stimulating arguments back.
Oh, I'm not on MP to find peace, not as you phrase it or might mean it. Im here to find God. Not peace, relief, etc. Any true path should be challenging, should force a great amount of introspection , facing ones shadow, etc. Emotional honesty isn'zt easy, seeing ones full self isn't easy, It shouldn't be 'easy', the best I can explain is 'hurts more, bothers me less' sensitivity to life goes up, dettachment also goers up at same time.
In any case, see it as defending, justifying if you wish, to me its more exploration, learning, gaining perspective. Not just on MP, but anti-cult thoughts and community as well
How much time am I spending? How do you judge what is too much or just curiosity? In any case to the extent it was concern, thanks, I am living my life, this is part of the play time, keeps me out of the bars and occasionally gives me something to contemplate. And deepcynic needs me, he cant make much of a case on his own, and appreciates, nay needs me to stop by and help make his case for him.
The karmic debt comment was a joke. Again.
Yeah, it's funny to me that you're still wanting concrete evidence of "secrets", but I get that you're looking at it from a different point of view. I wasn't referring to secret "organizations", but to what may come up in future levels of Master Path. Time will tell for you of course. But if I recall, there WERE former Master Path people of 10+ years who made comments to the effect that you're too new to have been exposed to some of the deeper meanings. Like whether to worship Gary or not, blah, blah, blah. I can't speak with any authority, so I'll refer you back to them.
What IS initiation about then? Is it just that you get a an engraved plaque or something? If there's no further knowledge or "progression" involved, it seems mighty silly.
So glad to hear you have doubt. So glad Gary wants you to investigate. What if you asked Gary about what you've learned by investigating him and his history here? Or investigating, say Unitarian or Muslim faith? It'd be awesome for you to find out his feelings and response to the types of inner thoughts and explorations that have nothing to do with him.
By all means uncover your feelings for everyone here if you must. But I think you know what I mean when I say about internet message board posting and how it's ultimately irrelevant to one's spiritual quest.
You're not looking for peace but for God. Uh, yeah, I know. Allow me to share the fruits of my own spiritual "labor" - which was not "easy" either mind you. Finding God IS peace. God is love, God is in your soul, God is peace, God is everything. It's all cliche until it really clicks. Gary Olsen is not God, is not love, and is not peace. I'm not a hippie by the way. Or Christian. Or Atheist. Or Agnostic. Or anything I've found defined in those ways. But seriously...Gary Olsen??? Oy vey! (And I'm not Jewish either, I just like that expression.)
Really, no one else is intellectual here? Certainly not everyone is in MENSA, but I'm pretty sure you're not either. Spiritual "dues" are the least of my worries personally. But if you want to go down that road yourself, I guess just look at your bank statements and analyze accordingly. You're probably going to explain away Gary's tax forms no matter what's there.
Honestly, yeah, you might be spending too much time on the message board defending someone like...um..."Sri" GARY OLSEN???! I've read most of your posts, and there were a LOT! Why not spend that time reading Gary's amazing intellectual insights (or those of whomever taught him) instead of mine or Deepcynic's? And why would you try to insult Deepcynic by saying he/she "needs" you in ANY way? That's SO not spiritually advanced of you. Maybe you have some of the same ego issues as Gary. To a lesser extent of course. But from what I've read, your critics are really not about that. It seems to me there are people here looking to help others who've been caught up with "Sri Gary" and cult-like aspects of his group. Give them all a break. Maybe some have a little bitterness or an axe to grind so you're quick to dismiss them, I don't know. But you're still pretty new to Master Path. Isn't there a SLIGHT possibility some of these people have points that can't be meaningfully countered by someone who hasn't even reached the 2nd initiation yet? I mean, I'm guessing Gary and the Master Path followers are super duper nice to you and all. But all cults are/were seemingly nice. If they were mean and hateful, who would've ever followed any of them? Marshall Applewhite was a sweetie from what I understand, and never forced anything on anyone.
Uh oh, now I'm turning into the new allan1015 with my multiple big long posts. YIKES! No seriously, I wish you well in your search. Just continue being cautious with each spoonful of applesauce. REALLY!
Hard to tell what some believe about things like karma, there are folks posting here who would have meant your comment in earnest.
I am not looking for concrete evidence of secret organizations, I am saying there is no evidence at all, even speculation, or hints, that such exists. At least with other secret organizationsa, like a Cabal, Illuminati, Area51, etc there are rumors, evidence albeit it more like speculation and connecting the dots. My point is that there is none of that concerning ultra secret and hidden societies within MP. Not sure how you get from me saying there isn't even speculation of subgroups, not even from former students, to that being a demand for hard evidence?
As far as initiation, are you familiar with any guru lead paths? I am trying to answer in terms or spiritual paths you might be familiar with.
-What if you asked Gary about what you've learned by investigating him and his history here?
I can only let you know when I do this, otherwise would be speculation. I am sure I wont be the first or the last to have questions and ask him things. Actually out of 'all' the stuff here I've only one sorta inconsistency that I wonder about, still comtemplating on.
-Or investigating, say Unitarian or Muslim faith?
Not sure why I would be asking him his thoughts on these things, I've looked at them and others over my life, reached my own conclusions. MP students them,selves often are folks that have been down other paths, I know of at least one, perhaps two Unitarians. I am interested in my spiritual growth and would save my questions to those kinds of issues, I guess. Perhaps I'm missing your point.
- internet message board posting and how it's ultimately irrelevant to one's spiritual quest.
Is it always ultimately irrelevant? I don't know where inspiration and insight will spring from. I think whats more important is if its taking to much energy or focus, the quality of conversation, my state of mind when in it, etc. Of course beating my head against the wall, constant banter with ninnys and bigots is likely not fertile ground, but hey look if I hadn't come back yesterday after a week or so to check in, would I have found you?
-Finding God IS peace. God is love, God is in your soul, God is peace, God is everything.
Perhaps, my point is that the objective is not peace, or love, perhaps they will be offshoots, benefits, etc. I honestly don't know what it will be like to be God realized, while in human form. What does it 'feel' like to be enlightened? We can have a longer conversation if you like, but suffice for now to say that I personally reject the idea that it means being blissed out, sans of any human feelings, etc.
I also don't know exactly what a true guru will 'look like' to an observer. Will all gurus always appear peaceful to me? will they only exude love? I don't think so. I believe in the bad boy guru. I believe challenging my ego can make me feel all kinds of things that will, in the moment, not appear to me or even another as loving. I've had alcoholics in my life and have had to do things that others judged as mean or cruel. I know I wasnt acting out of such places when I did them.
--Certainly not everyone is in MENSA, but I'm pretty sure you're not either.
That would be wrong, though I've let membership lapse many years ago- the point of being qualified for such was all I meant. I got a BS with a 3.64 average, while working full time and supporting a family. I was a 4.0 sailor in navy. Whats the point. I'm not setting mensa membership or IQ levels as a qualifier or even the kind of intelligence I was looking for. Perhaps intelligent conversation isn't the right word.
-You're probably going to explain away Gary's tax forms no matter what's there.
Ok well were getting back to that kind of conversatrion. I've not seen anything in the tax forms that concerns me. Was there something that jumped out at you?
-And why would you try to insult Deepcynic by saying he/she "needs" you in ANY way?
That was an insult? Hmm and I thought it was tongue in cheek humor. If I'm gone for over a couple weeks he starts sending me private messages to come back. He posts quite often how I've helped make his case by posting, so much so its become a standard retort of his. So I made some humor over that.
-It seems to me there are people here looking to help others who've been caught up with "Sri Gary" and cult-like aspects of his group. Give them all a break.
Ahh well, we would have to go through folks and try to assess their intent. I believe a good number of people are simply pushing their spiritual/religious beliefs on others, and some of those are trying to cloak and mask this with a a patina of concern. Some of those may not even be aware. But what is your point, is my voice any less valid then theirs?
Do you really believe that there are no bigots in the anticult community. Do you believe that every anti-cult person/leader is honorable?
Oh, and I've yet to see the harm that MP inflicts, any more then any other religious/spiritual group could. Say a Christian who finds the pope is fallible and has a crisis of faith. Or a jew who finds his rabbi slept with his wife.
-- Isn't there a SLIGHT possibility some of these people have points that can't be meaningfully countered by someone who hasn't even reached the 2nd initiation yet?
No t evident in the posts.
Look at the cases presented, less then 1% of the discussion and issues has anything to do with the teachings themselves. The details of the Sant Shabd Yoga / Light&Sound / MP cosmology/metaphysics are not being presented as the case or proof as to why Gary or MP is a harmful destructive cult. "Gary is money grubbing, Gary doesn't give a ****, Gary is weird, MP should't charge."
There was a case by end_of_faith that Id not been around long enough to see the details and behavior patterns and such, but I dont believe the case was about level of awareness/consciousness/teaching. Someone else made some points about inconsistencies over years, but like 7 or more of them. I think the point was that Gary moves the bar so to speak. Again, nothing to do with level of awareness/consciousness/teaching.
Though if you can point out something I may have missed I'm happy to look it over.
--I mean, I'm guessing Gary and the Master Path followers are super duper nice to you and all.
Not any more then others. Cant say anyone goes out of their way, which I like. Like Ive said Chelas come in all shapes and sizes, everyone is on their own path, has their own baggage. As an example, I was chastised by one guy who thought I was a joke because I hadn't purchased all the books in the first two years. (still haven't). He was on some purity or sincerity kick.
Thanks for your questions and comments.
Last edited by allan1015; 07-23-2009 at 10:40 AM..
This guy Allen is not really worth listening to in my opinion. My sister and I have done research talked to David Lane and other anticult folks and found out enough to know that Master Path is something to stay away from.
end_of_faith and others here has been very helpful in our quest for what really goes on and we are very appreciative.
This guy Allen is not really worth listening to in my opinion. My sister and I have done research talked to David Lane and other anticult folks and found out enough to know that Master Path is something to stay away from.
end_of_faith and others here has been very helpful in our quest for what really goes on and we are very appreciative.
Indeed, Allen is a lost casue, I'm afraid.
He claims an age and knowledge within the Circles that should've been sufficient enough for him to see exactly what this charleton is all about.
Our research is pretty clear as to say that this is a total scam. I think it interesting that this guy is the only one that defends Master Path here and he really seems to be fanatic and very repetitive as well as reluctant to anser direct questions.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
