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By the "truth", I think you must mean "YOUR truth", and that which YOU believe to be true. Remember, I do not believe in the bible as the word of god but the word of man written via the inspiration of god. But being that you seem to see the bible as some sort of authority, of course you interpret the words therein differently than someone like me does.
I still do not believe that we as humans can sin away and just be forgiven simply because a bunch of jerks killed jesus, who was a very controversial and outspoken activist of his time- son of god or not, and I refuse to believe that jesus died just in order that we can sin and just be forgiven (though many people actually believe that). Personally, I don't even believe in the word "sin", I just believe that people do bad things and act poorly and do things that extend beyond that which is acceptable to those with any sort of moral compass. It's about personal responsibility and the onus we all bear to look inside ourselves and seek our own forgiveness and make an effort to do better which, in turn, helps ourselves and our fellow man. God is not a person with any sort of emotion nor ability to make judgements, god is an energy and entity. So god cannot forgive he who does not forgive himself nor can god live within he who denies the reality of the effect that his own actions have on himself, and others. And with that realization comes spiritual growth and, in turn, a better, kinder world in which to live. THAT is what jesus had in mind.
See bolded above. It was God's intention all along send His Son to be our sin offering (Romans 5). God has always required a blood sacrifice for the remission of sins (Hebrews 9).
Even at our very best, we cannot measure up to God's standard (Isaiah 64). We cannot save ourself (Ephesians 2). Jesus is our only hope.
You say you love Jesus, but you don't believe the Bible is His Word. What is the basis for your beliefs? Did you just come to this conclusion on your own? If so, I gotta say, that's seems mighty dangerous.
From the christian viewpoint(at least hell believing christians) it means that by dying on the cross he 'redeemed' those who believe in him. The concept of original sin says that the transgression of Adam and Eve in the garden of Eden caused mankind to fall out of god's grace and into 'sin.' When Jesus died on the cross it was said that through belief/worship said individual will be 'cleansed' of their sins and therefore made possible to enter heaven. Mind you this all from a biblical standpoint rather than reason.
By the "truth", I think you must mean "YOUR truth", and that which YOU believe to be true. Remember, I do not believe in the bible as the word of god but the word of man written via the inspiration of god. But being that you seem to see the bible as some sort of authority, of course you interpret the words therein differently than someone like me does.
I still do not believe that we as humans can sin away and just be forgiven simply because a bunch of jerks killed jesus, who was a very controversial and outspoken activist of his time- son of god or not, and I refuse to believe that jesus died just in order that we can sin and just be forgiven (though many people actually believe that). Personally, I don't even believe in the word "sin", I just believe that people do bad things and act poorly and do things that extend beyond that which is acceptable to those with any sort of moral compass. It's about personal responsibility and the onus we all bear to look inside ourselves and seek our own forgiveness and make an effort to do better which, in turn, helps ourselves and our fellow man. God is not a person with any sort of emotion nor ability to make judgements, god is an energy and entity. So god cannot forgive he who does not forgive himself nor can god live within he who denies the reality of the effect that his own actions have on himself, and others. And with that realization comes spiritual growth and, in turn, a better, kinder world in which to live. THAT is what jesus had in mind.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmiej
See bolded above. It was God's intention all along send His Son to be our sin offering (Romans 5). God has always required a blood sacrifice for the remission of sins (Hebrews 9).
Even at our very best, we cannot measure up to God's standard (Isaiah 64). We cannot save ourself (Ephesians 2). Jesus is our only hope.
You say you love Jesus, but you don't believe the Bible is His Word. What is the basis for your beliefs? Did you just come to this conclusion on your own? If so, I gotta say, that's seems mighty dangerous.
Did I come to this conclusion on my own? Well of course I did. I am an intelligent, thinking person and so on my own, based on life experience and the information I have gathered in my life, that is how I come to any and every conclusion and how I make decisions every single day...which, I'm sorry, is hardly dangerous; how do YOU make your decisions? Or, do you NOT make decisions on your own and instead follow blindly and let others, or some other authority make your decisions for you? Now THAT is dangerous.
And I can love jesus without believing the bible is god's word (you said HIS, but I'm assuming you meant god?). The bible is simply a long book that happens to include jesus as a character in it, that's all.
But, to be fair I will answer your question as to exactly how I came to that conclusion since you asked...I was raised liberal christian and went to sunday school every week since I was very little up and through highschool. So, I learned quite a bit about jesus, christianity in general, and bits here and there about the bible. Then, after attending to college and living on my own I made a point to educate myself on other religions and what they believe. ALL different religions, ones I wasn't interested in, and ones that, before I researched them, scared me a little. I even read the Satanic bible cover to cover and have read the basics of the Qoran, etc.. And so, based on all I learned about all the other religions and after piecing everything together, I came to the conclusion that the christian bible is not any sort of authority whatsoever, but simply a series of parables that do have a diluted and stretched basis in history as well as a running "theme" of god intermingled. So please, as you keep quoting the bible, remember that I do not believe in it as you do so and thus you quoting it doesn't help your argument any further. Especially things like this: God has always required a blood sacrifice for the remission of sins (Hebrews 9)
Now THAT is just altogether disturbing! And a prime example as to why I do not in any way whatsoever take ANYTHING from the christian bible as literal truth. Do you really, honestly, have no problem believing in a god that demands blood/flesh sacrifice and human suffering?!? Well if you do, have at it- but I do not. And don't be so surprised when others do not either. Even many of your fellow christians. The god I believe in does not require any "sacrifices" or anything of the like. The god I believe in is an all-loving entity and energy, not some sort of wrathful puppeteer looming above us with a grimace on "his" face... And I'm sorry for you that you believe that yours does- I'd hate to live under the wrath of any entity that expects blood in exchange for anything. Sounds more like an old mythical, or pagan belief or something (oh wait- christian traditions ARE based mostly in paganism, so...)
Even at our very best, we cannot measure up to God's standard (Isaiah 64). We cannot save ourself (Ephesians 2). Jesus is our only hope.
First of all, if you believe that you, me and all of us are splinters of and from god, then god is within all of us so the first part of that quote doesn't even make sense. But I do not think you believe that, or you would not speak as you do. Only if you believe that god is separate and above you would you believe as you do and adhere so firmly to biblical scripture. Sure, we can always do better as humans and that's the whole idea; we're supposed to be honest and true to ourselves and our lives and live and love as fully and deeply. To bear the onus of "never being good enough" is a pretty screwed up way to live- kind of like an abusive parent. I do believe we CAN save ourselves though, I will admit, for those without any internal fortitude or in need of some sort of external guidance, looking to jesus is a good way to start. But I'm talking about looking to jesus NOT as a scapegoat, but as a teacher and role model which is what jesus' life was really all about- not the last few crappy days of his life that were filled with torture and misery of an UNNECESSARY, nature...
One of the foundation beliefs in the Christian religion is that when Jesus was crucified and died on the cross that he died for our sins. For those of you who know me, you know I'm not asking that in some sarcastic manner, I just honestly have never understood what that even means. First of all, Christians also believe that Jesus arose from the dead and that he's living right now so he really isn't really dead afterall. So here's a few questions about this situation. If Jesus hadn't died for our sins how would that have changed the circumstances of the lives of every human being?
No one would have been resurrected. Death would be the end.
Quote:
What exactly does it mean when Christians say he died for our sins? Are you saying that even though Jesus didn't commit the sins committed by billions of human beings that it erased their bad behavior and somehow changed the fundamental situation they would be facing and gave them an opportunity for eternal life which they otherwise would not have had?
To me, it means that He assumed the guilt for the sins we committed and took upon Himself the punishment we deserve for our wrongdoings. If we repent of our sins, and recognize His role as our Savior, we will be able to be reconciled to God in the life to come. Unlike most Christians, I believe that those who refuse to accept Him (which could either be in this life or during the time we all await the resurrection) will also be allowed to go to Heaven. The difference is that they will have to endure the punishment that He made it possible for them to avoid.
Did I come to this conclusion on my own? Well of course I did. I am an intelligent, thinking person and so on my own, based on life experience and the information I have gathered in my life, that is how I come to any and every conclusion and how I make decisions every single day...which, I'm sorry, is hardly dangerous; how do YOU make your decisions? Or, do you NOT make decisions on your own and instead follow blindly and let others, or some other authority make your decisions for you? Now THAT is dangerous.
I follow the Bible.
Quote:
Originally Posted by helios666
And I can love jesus without believing the bible is god's word (you said HIS, but I'm assuming you meant god?). The bible is simply a long book that happens to include jesus as a character in it, that's all.
Jesus is God & the Bible is His Holy Word (John 1)
Quote:
Originally Posted by helios666
But, to be fair I will answer your question as to exactly how I came to that conclusion since you asked...I was raised liberal christian and went to sunday school every week since I was very little up and through highschool. So, I learned quite a bit about jesus, christianity in general, and bits here and there about the bible. Then, after attending to college and living on my own I made a point to educate myself on other religions and what they believe. ALL different religions, ones I wasn't interested in, and ones that, before I researched them, scared me a little. I even read the Satanic bible cover to cover and have read the basics of the Qoran, etc.. And so, based on all I learned about all the other religions and after piecing everything together, I came to the conclusion that the christian bible is not any sort of authority whatsoever, but simply a series of parables that do have a diluted and stretched basis in history as well as a running "theme" of god intermingled. So please, as you keep quoting the bible, remember that I do not believe in it as you do so and thus you quoting it doesn't help your argument any further.
There's your problem. You've allowed scripture not of God to influence your thinking.
Quote:
Originally Posted by helios666
God has always required a blood sacrifice for the remission of sins (Hebrews 9)
Now THAT is just altogether disturbing! And a prime example as to why I do not in any way whatsoever take ANYTHING from the christian bible as literal truth. Do you really, honestly, have no problem believing in a god that demands blood/flesh sacrifice and human suffering?!? Well if you do, have at it- but I do not. And don't be so surprised when others do not either. Even many of your fellow christians. The god I believe in does not require any "sacrifices" or anything of the like. The god I believe in is an all-loving entity and energy, not some sort of wrathful puppeteer looming above us with a grimace on "his" face... And I'm sorry for you that you believe that yours does- I'd hate to live under the wrath of any entity that expects blood in exchange for anything. Sounds more like an old mythical, or pagan belief or something (oh wait- christian traditions ARE based mostly in paganism, so...)
Hebrews 9
16In the case of a will, it is necessary to prove the death of the one who made it, 17because a will is in force only when somebody has died; it never takes effect while the one who made it is living. 18This is why even the first covenant was not put into effect without blood. 19When Moses had proclaimed every commandment of the law to all the people, he took the blood of calves, together with water, scarlet wool and branches of hyssop, and sprinkled the scroll and all the people. 20He said, "This is the blood of the covenant, which God has commanded you to keep." 21In the same way, he sprinkled with the blood both the tabernacle and everything used in its ceremonies. 22In fact, the law requires that nearly everything be cleansed with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.
Haven't you ever heard of the Passover? Are you aware of what the blood on the doorposts was for?
Quote:
Originally Posted by helios666
Even at our very best, we cannot measure up to God's standard (Isaiah 64). We cannot save ourself (Ephesians 2). Jesus is our only hope.
First of all, if you believe that you, me and all of us are splinters of and from god, then god is within all of us so the first part of that quote doesn't even make sense. But I do not think you believe that, or you would not speak as you do. Only if you believe that god is separate and above you would you believe as you do and adhere so firmly to biblical scripture. Sure, we can always do better as humans and that's the whole idea; we're supposed to be honest and true to ourselves and our lives and live and love as fully and deeply. To bear the onus of "never being good enough" is a pretty screwed up way to live- kind of like an abusive parent. I do believe we CAN save ourselves though, I will admit, for those without any internal fortitude or in need of some sort of external guidance, looking to jesus is a good way to start. But I'm talking about looking to jesus NOT as a scapegoat, but as a teacher and role model which is what jesus' life was really all about- not the last few crappy days of his life that were filled with torture and misery of an UNNECESSARY, nature...
Ephesians 2
8For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9not by works, so that no one can boast.
For one thousand years, according to my beliefs. The righteous, including the repentent sinners who accept Him after death but prior to His Second Coming, will be resurrected at the beginning of the Millennium and be judged at that time. The wicked, including the non-repentent sinners who refuse to acknowledge His role as their Savior will be made to suffer for the duration of the thousand years when Christ reigns on the Earth, after which time they will have paid the price for their own sins and will be allowed to enter Heaven, but with a lesser reward than the righteous.
For one thousand years, according to my beliefs. The righteous, including the repentent sinners who accept Him after death but prior to His Second Coming, will be resurrected at the beginning of the Millennium and be judged at that time. The wicked, including the non-repentent sinners who refuse to acknowledge His role as their Savior will be made to suffer for the duration of the thousand years when Christ reigns on the Earth, after which time they will have paid the price for their own sins and will be allowed to enter Heaven, but with a lesser reward than the righteous.
May I assume this is your interpretation of Rev. 20?
What Does It Mean When You Say That Jesus Died For Our Sins?
I believe it means that you are seriously hard up for topics of conversation.
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