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One of the many ironies I have always found in the Christian religion are the stories of the bible in which God, in his indignant wrath, destroys cities and even the world. Does that not make God guilty of murder? Is murder not a sin? What sins did the people of these stories commit that justified their murder. Were all the people equally deserving to die? If God is all knowing, why is the Bible full of stories of God's mistakes? For example Satan and all the demons were once angels, but they were defective. Adam & Eve, defective. The entire human race at the time of Noah, defective. The people of Sodom & Gomorrah, defective. And ultimately, the whole human race at the present time, who do not believe in the Christian religion, defective. Seems like God creates mostly defective merchandise and then destroys his creations. Does not make much sense to me.
No, it does not make God guilty of murder. He is the creator and we are His creation. He is perfect, holy and just. God does not make mistakes. Everyone is created for a reason, a purpose. When they deny that purpose and deny Him and turn from Him that is not His fault. God is able to be known by all and has provided ways for everyone to know Him such that mankind is without excuse (Romans 1:18-20) What you call defective is what I see as rebellious, prideful and sinful... created beings disobeying their creator, denying their creator, cursing Him and doing everything in their power to set themselves up as their own god, refusing to be accountable to The One who created them and gave them life.
God, as the creator of life, has the discretion to take away life. This is His legitimate right. He freely gave it and so He has the right to take it away. We may not completely understand (now) God's reasons why, but that does not negate His right.
No, it does not make God guilty of murder. He is the creator and we are His creation. He is perfect, holy and just. God does not make mistakes. Everyone is created for a reason, a purpose. When they deny that purpose and deny Him and turn from Him that is not His fault. God is able to be known by all and has provided ways for everyone to know Him such that mankind is without excuse (Romans 1:18-20) What you call defective is what I see as rebellious, prideful and sinful... created beings disobeying their creator, denying their creator, cursing Him and doing everything in their power to set themselves up as their own god, refusing to be accountable to The One who created them and gave them life.
God, as the creator of life, has the discretion to take away life. This is His legitimate right. He freely gave it and so He has the right to take it away. We may not completely understand (now) God's reasons why, but that does not negate His right.
Okay I get what you are saying but I have a question.
If God is perfect, and we are indeed created in his image, then why are we so flawed? If anything, doesn't that suggest that God himself is flawed? That he is imperfect? I don't understand, if he is perfect (and not making mistakes is inherently implied with perfect) why would he have created such a sinful creature? If anything, the imperfection of humans shows the imperfections of your God. He's jealous, bigoted, racist, sexist, and arbitrary. I don't see how you can create imperfection out of perfection when the simple fact of the matter is, if he were perfect, his creations would be too.
Or if you want to put love in the hearts of humankind . . . you could have a loving accepting God of unconditional love trying to guide His children safely to maturity avoiding all the "death traps" that exist in life. A God that would allow us to scourge and crucify Him in our complete ignorance and barbarity rather than lift a finger to "smite" even one of us. One who would stick around after physical death as Spirit within us to urge and guide those who are willing to that maturity. You pays your money . . and you takes your chances.
Unfortunately, that's not the God of the Christian Bible. The God of the Christian bible ordered his followers to commit genocide, he commanded his followers to capture women and force them into sex slavery - particularly the virgin girls. He ordered the plunder and murder of children, and in fact admitted to killing many innocent children himself). He was pro-slavery, and wanted to murder any girl who has sex before marriage, or any guy who did the gay thing.
If one were to believe the bible, we would have to conclude that the Christain god was the greatest war criminal ever. If anyone should burn in hell, it would be him.
No, it does not make God guilty of murder. He is the creator and we are His creation. He is perfect, holy and just. God does not make mistakes. Everyone is created for a reason, a purpose. When they deny that purpose and deny Him and turn from Him that is not His fault. God is able to be known by all and has provided ways for everyone to know Him such that mankind is without excuse (Romans 1:18-20) What you call defective is what I see as rebellious, prideful and sinful... created beings disobeying their creator, denying their creator, cursing Him and doing everything in their power to set themselves up as their own god, refusing to be accountable to The One who created them and gave them life.
God, as the creator of life, has the discretion to take away life. This is His legitimate right. He freely gave it and so He has the right to take it away. We may not completely understand (now) God's reasons why, but that does not negate His right.
Forgive me, but IF this world is indeed a creation of the god you describe, I have to admit he sure conjured up a disaster; one where the overwhelming majority of his prized creation has been and will be "lost" for eternity and a world reeling in unimaginable pain of all kinds WITH his foreknowledge of it all. Supposedly he saw it all before he created it and still went through with it? To gain what? A few faithful souls?
Okay I get what you are saying but I have a question.
If God is perfect, and we are indeed created in his image, then why are we so flawed? If anything, doesn't that suggest that God himself is flawed? That he is imperfect? I don't understand, if he is perfect (and not making mistakes is inherently implied with perfect) why would he have created such a sinful creature? If anything, the imperfection of humans shows the imperfections of your God. He's jealous, bigoted, racist, sexist, and arbitrary. I don't see how you can create imperfection out of perfection when the simple fact of the matter is, if he were perfect, his creations would be too.
Man was created perfect, with a free will. It was not a "oops" kind of mistake in Eden. It was a willful and purposeful disregard of what God told them not to do. God had one rule .. don't eat fruit from one tree. They had a choice to obey or not obey. They willfully disobeyed God. That's what God punished and why we are now imperfect. Man chose to do things his own way, knowing the consequence of such an action, and now wants to blame it all on God.
As for those characteristics you attribute to God... jealous I'll give you, but only in the limited view that He wants us to worship Him and no other. The others are people's ideas being placed on Him, being read into the bible instead of reading what they bible is imparting to us. God is none of those other characteristics, especially arbitrary. He does nothing in a knee-jerk reaction, IMO.
No, it does not make God guilty of murder. He is the creator and we are His creation. He is perfect, holy and just. God does not make mistakes. Everyone is created for a reason, a purpose. When they deny that purpose and deny Him and turn from Him that is not His fault. God is able to be known by all and has provided ways for everyone to know Him such that mankind is without excuse (Romans 1:18-20) What you call defective is what I see as rebellious, prideful and sinful... created beings disobeying their creator, denying their creator, cursing Him and doing everything in their power to set themselves up as their own god, refusing to be accountable to The One who created them and gave them life.
God, as the creator of life, has the discretion to take away life. This is His legitimate right. He freely gave it and so He has the right to take it away. We may not completely understand (now) God's reasons why, but that does not negate His right.
On many occasions God murdered innocent children, and ordered the murder of innocent children. Under what theory would murdering a baby be perfect, holy, and just? What about when he ordered his follower to enter a city, kill all the men and women, and keep all the virgin girls for sex slaves? How on earth can you be in favor of that?
I think that you've committed yourself to a tautology and now you refuse to analyze it to see if it makes any sense. "God does everything perfectly - we can prove that anything God did was perfect because God was the one who did it." You could apply that same standard to me, and I would be perfect as well.
But if you use any normal measure of right or wrong, the Christian God would be a monster.
On many occasions God murdered innocent children, and ordered the murder of innocent children. Under what theory would murdering a baby be perfect, holy, and just? What about when he ordered his follower to enter a city, kill all the men and women, and keep all the virgin girls for sex slaves? How on earth can you be in favor of that?
Please provide the scripture(s) you are referencing so I may respond.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Boxcar Overkill
But if you use any normal measure of right or wrong, the Christian God would be a monster.
And what is your basis, your foundation, for what you consider right and wrong? Where does this knowledge come from? What you consider right and wrong may be different than my idea of right and wrong, and wholly different that what God deems as right and wrong.
Unfortunately, that's not the God of the Christian Bible. The God of the Christian bible ordered his followers to commit genocide, he commanded his followers to capture women and force them into sex slavery - particularly the virgin girls. He ordered the plunder and murder of children, and in fact admitted to killing many innocent children himself). He was pro-slavery, and wanted to murder any girl who has sex before marriage, or any guy who did the gay thing.
If one were to believe the bible, we would have to conclude that the Christain god was the greatest war criminal ever. If anyone should burn in hell, it would be him.
Those things were done by Yahweh or Jehovah (the misunderstood and misrepresented God of the OT under the "veil of blindness" Jesus came to remove and correct while fulfilling the prophesies) . . . NOT Jesus. The Christian God is as I described.
Those things were done by Yahweh or Jehovah (the misunderstood and misrepresented God of the OT under the "veil of blindness" Jesus came to remove and correct while fulfilling the prophesies) . . . NOT Jesus. The Christian God is as I described.
I see, then the old testament is a millstone around the Christian neck...Why not just get rid of it?
I see, then the old testament is a millstone around the Christian neck...Why not just get rid of it?
Because without it there is no validation of Jesus with all the subsequent fulfillments of prophesy that span the entire 2000+ years after they were predicted. It is needed to show that Jesus did fulfill them. The NATURE of God is to be determined ONLY by Jesus's character and actions for all Christians. Bibleans and Churchians have a different view.
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