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I am certainly intellectually invested in it. This thread is about whether anyone has had an OBE or not remember? And the "arm thing" is one I have had and one anyone can have. And it is easy to accomplish. It is a genuine OBE type experience because essentially your own brain is valiantly attempting to convince you of your body location in a way you know is patently not true intellectually.
Then as you are likely aware, intellectually no one has argued that the arm experiment isn;t valid. The argument has been about the nature of different types of OOBEs, and it should not be suppressed just because 'the arm leaving the body' will do, and whatever else doesn;t matter and is of no consequence.
You are correct that there is emotion invested in my own OOBEs, but no that alone. There is also intellect, which is part of the propellant behind the impulse to continue investigating.
So no - no one is making light of the fact that you say your arm has had an OOBE.
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As you say, the brain is not a mindful organ and perhaps you are right to point out the failings of the word "trick" here. The word is suggestive of intentional deception which is not really what things like OBE are. A more accurate word would be "fail". Things like OBE are brain fails, not tricks. In the same way that many optical illusions which expose failures in the brain are.
That is an interesting perception to have.
So when you are saying "your own brain is valiantly attempting to convince you" what you mean is that your brain has a failure about it.
The so-called 'failure' tricks the person experiencing the failure to think an experience has occurred, when really no experience happened at all...OR...and experience did happen but it was the result of 'brain failure' which gave the individual a vivid and complex interactive experience, which otherwise could not have happened.
To an individual with a perfectly healthy brain, no such experiences occur.
Sounds pharmaceutically reasonable...as in - something Big Pharma would propagate.
I can see though how someone who has experienced their arm have an OOBE would naturally come to such conclusions.
Just as I can see that those who have had far more complex and invigorating OOBEs would look into other possible explanations rather than decide "Oh, my brain failed."
I think part of what is happening here is that you are using your brain to "valiantly attempting to convince" others that their brains failed them.
When I think of my own experiences, I genuinely have to chuckle about that...
TThe argument has been about the nature of different types of OOBEs, and it should not be suppressed just because 'the arm leaving the body' will do, and whatever else doesn;t matter and is of no consequence.
Then you will be overjoyed to find I engaged in no such supressions. So I am not entirely sure why you bring it up. But as I say, while there are clear differences between the experiences, there are enough underlying commonalities to make them equally valid exploratory methods as each other to explore the phenomenon.
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Originally Posted by Rotagivan
So when you are saying "your own brain is valiantly attempting to convince you" what you mean is that your brain has a failure about it.
I guess I mean both. Clearly the brain is failing. It is telling you your arm is somewhere it patently is not. But it is an organ evolved without methods to check itself in this regard. It will valiantly tell you where it genuinely believes your arm to be, regardless of how wrong it is. And this is an amazing sensation and quite transformative.
Many of us go through life pretty much convinced by anything our brain tells us. So to starkly see it telling you something you patently know to be false, is quite an enlightening experience because it highlights quite powerfully how skeptical one needs to be of even ones own perceptions, let alone those of others. And as you can see such experiences CAN be had by "perfectly healthy brains".
I personally love things like optical illusions and many other things that highlight "brain fails". Most people are entirely unaware of the brain fails your brain engages in most of every day. It is quite enlightening to make oneself aware of them.
Can't say I have ever heard such stories as you speak of here.
What I can say, is that your particular belief systems are not the best to be trying such a thing as astral projection and you are correct to stay where your fear keeps you.
You will not be taken anywhere that you would not be able to handle.
It is an interesting thing you say about what you believe you will experience when you die. There will be 'two' of you, one with 'control' and the other presumably not.
That is duality for ya.
Adam was lain down in a sleep of death to obtain a wife, and she was made from his own body and the two became one. He became the ruling spirit in her left eye, and whether there was really an Adam or Eve is irrelevant because the story shows them to be the same person and he is to be the guiding spirit inside her, together they were,'' the most beautiful creature.''
This is the same thing that Jesus had done, he died to obtain a wife and he didn't fill a void, because a person is already in a marriage because the spirit of the fallen Adam is within all people, but the idea is that we reject our mother and father{Adam and Eve} and we refuse to be their son, we become a submissive virgin to the will of a new betrothed, and we are to be married one day but while the betrothed has gone away, we are left with a seed. We become submissive virgins and never having known our husband, we become miraculously pregnant, and we are to raise the child of God within us, and it is that birth that we wait upon, IF we have raised a full grown man, we give birth to that full grown man at death.
But if anyone says they are the bride of Christ and they say that his spirit is within them, then that's all I am saying, there really is a spirit which will come and lead you into righteousness, but this spirit did not fill a void, and the fallen spirit which we reject and the son we refuse to be, he will also be there when we die.
WE fight a spiritual battle having two minds BECAUSE we are of two minds.
This is what happens when a person decides to get betrothed to Christ.
Not Peace, But Division`Luke 12
…51"Do you suppose that I came to grant peace on earth? I tell you, no, but rather division; 52for from now on five members in one household{ONE BODY} will be divided, three against two and two against three. 53"They will be divided, father against son and son against father, mother against daughter and daughter against mother, mother-in-law against daughter-in-law and daughter-in-law against mother-in-law."
Becoming a submissive virgin who would get betrothed to Christ is about hating your father, and becoming a virgin instead of a would be king, and then the daughter in law will hate the mother in law and mother in law will hate the daughter in law.
Adam was lain down in a sleep of death to obtain a wife, and she was made from his own body and the two became one. He became the ruling spirit in her left eye, and whether there was really an Adam or Eve is irrelevant because the story shows them to be the same person and he is to be the guiding spirit inside her, together they were,'' the most beautiful creature.''
This is the same thing that Jesus had done, he died to obtain a wife and he didn't fill a void, because a person is already in a marriage because the spirit of the fallen Adam is within all people, but the idea is that we reject our mother and father{Adam and Eve} and we refuse to be their son, we become a submissive virgin to the will of a new betrothed, and we are to be married one day but while the betrothed has gone away, we are left with a seed. We become submissive virgins and never having known our husband, we become miraculously pregnant, and we are to raise the child of God within us, and it is that birth that we wait upon, IF we have raised a full grown man, we give birth to that full grown man at death.
But if anyone says they are the bride of Christ and they say that his spirit is within them, then that's all I am saying, there really is a spirit which will come and lead you into righteousness, but this spirit did not fill a void, and the fallen spirit which we reject and the son we refuse to be, he will also be there when we die.
WE fight a spiritual battle having two minds BECAUSE we are of two minds.
I think we have to be able to overcome the need to be in two minds Hannibal.
Or, to be more to the point, if you believe you are of two minds, you will not be able to be anything other than what you believe.
But what you are saying here is more the metaphor of what I said in this post which I posted earlier today.
This is what happens when a person decides to get betrothed to Christ.
Not Peace, But Division`Luke 12
…51"Do you suppose that I came to grant peace on earth? I tell you, no, but rather division; 52for from now on five members in one household{ONE BODY} will be divided, three against two and two against three. 53"They will be divided, father against son and son against father, mother against daughter and daughter against mother, mother-in-law against daughter-in-law and daughter-in-law against mother-in-law."
Becoming a submissive virgin who would get betrothed to Christ is about hating your father, and becoming a virgin instead of a would be king, and then the daughter in law will hate the mother in law and mother in law will hate the daughter in law.
The division happens within one person.
That is very insightful metaphor Hannibal.
The idea is ultimately not about division within but of unity.
Of being able to self identify not by parroting that which was instilled into you as a child by parental figures (parents, teachers, officials, priest etc) but by peeling back those things to reveal the beautiful true nature of what one actually is and being that and self identifying with that...
The idea is ultimately not about division within but of unity.
Of being able to self identify not by parroting that which was instilled into you as a child by parental figures (parents, teachers, officials, priest etc) but by peeling back those things to reveal the beautiful true nature of what one actually is and being that and self identifying with that...
Unified.
Yeah, I don't believe anything like my parents or my family.
Began Pentecostal, ended up in Judaism.
But this division is talked about all over the New Testament. The kingdom of heaven is like a servant, the kingdom of heaven is you, and if you are a servant that will not watch, you get cut in half{dividing soul and spirit}, and then the kingdom of heaven will be as ten virgins{still you}
Two men in a field, one taken the other left behind{YOU}
The reason one is taken is obvious, it was two men.
It was two women.{same person}
One must be a submissive virgin{The flesh}, one must be a ruling spirit that studies, and this is a true marriage, but if the person is two men, it means the flesh wants to rule, if it is two women, there is no study.
A man had two sons, same person.
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