Explanations from Young Earthers (Mary, behavior, eternal, witness)
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Genesis chapter 1, day 3: the waters were gathered together in one place and the dry land appeared.
Genesis 1:9,10,13 And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry [land] appear: and it was so. And God called the dry [land] Earth; and the gathering together of the waters called he Seas: and God saw that [it was] good...
And the evening and the morning were the third day.
After the flood, and after the division of the tongues at the tower of Babel, the tribes scattered over the earth, the earth was divided, and the lives of the human race was shortened. This all happened over the time span of the two sons of Eber, -not in one day, but in the days of the lives of Peleg and Yoktan, these things happened.
Jasher chapter 7:19 These are the generations of Shem; Shem begat Arpachshad and Arpachshad begat Shelach, and Shelach begat Eber and to Eber were born two children, the name of one was Peleg, for in his days the sons of men were divided, and in the latter days, the earth was divided. And the name of the second was Yoktan, meaning that in his day the lives of the sons of men were diminished and lessened.
So this book (Jasher), which has no authentic copies known to exist, trumps what geology and physics have proven? Not so much. I'll go with the geologists and physicists. Their proven science makes these statements in the pseudopigraphic Jasher and yes, even Genesis, irrelevant. You have avoided the question concerning plate tectonics. Avoiding scientific fact by quoting a sacred text does nothing but diminish any argument you may have had.
Last edited by Fullback32; 08-04-2009 at 12:59 PM..
So this book (Jasher), which has no authentic copies known to exist, trumps what geology and physics have proven? Not so much. I'll go with the geologists and physicists. Their proven science makes these statements in the pseudopigraphic Jasher and yes, even Genesis, irrelevant. You have avoided the question concerning plate tectonics. Avoiding scientific fact by quoting a sacred text does nothing but diminish any argument you may have had.
Oh there's much more than that to make you gnash your teeth, which is wrotten in the book of Jasher, and in the book of 1 Enoch, and in the OT and NT.
Jasher tells us who was the first Latin king to be deified by his subjects after his death; who Osiris really was [a king of Egypt in Abram's days, who also came to be deified], and how Naples, Italy, got its name; who made the first aqueducts, from where to where, and why, and more -much more.
Jasher tells us the sun and moon stood still in the heavens for nearly a whole day [for 36 moments; whatever those moment measures were, they equaled almost a whole day, says the Word], and that the angels of God fought from heaven against the armies whom Joshua was fighting, with lightning and great hailstones -and the angels killed more than Joshua and his armies did, that day.
THe Word also tells us that the sun, moon, and stars travels in their courses/paths around the earth, and that the earth is fixed in place, from the beginning.
The Word tells us there was no heaven until day 2, to set the sun, moon and stars in,
The Word tells us that God created the Light on day 1, before He created hte heaven on day 2 in which He set the created sun, moon, and stars on day 4.
The Word tells us that God made the heavens by stretching them out between the divided waters, on day 2, and that the waters above the firmament are then, above the stars, sun, and moon.
Enoch also tells us that above the temple of God there is a heaven like clear water, which temple Enoch was taken to, which temple God says is set in the sun, in Psalm 18, in the Hebrew wording and in the Greek Septuagint wording].
Oh yes, indeed! there is lots to make unbelievers who profess themselves to be wise -but who have become fools- to gnash their teeth about, which is written in God's Word.
Barry Fell - invertabrate zoologist with no training in linguistics at all.
Isaac Mozeson - An Edenicists who, again, has no formal training in linguistics, and like Fell, has no standing in the Linguistics Community in the least as both men make wild an unsubstantiated claims not founded in reality in the least.
"Book of Jasher" - Written in 1751, claiming to have been "found while on pilgramage" and translated by "Flaccus Albinus Alcuinus" Abbott of Canterbury. Only thing was the language of the book showed it to be a fraud written long after the good Abbot had lived, and the purpetrator, a printer named Jacob Ilive, was sentanced to 5 years in English prison in 1756 for fraud connected with the "Book of Jasher" and also for publishing radical anti-religous pamphlets as well.
One would expect that a "gospel" claiming that the Ten Commandments were given to Moses by his father-in-law Jethro, instead of by your god, would be a clear indication to anyone familiar with their bible that this was a fraud to begin with.
I find it quite telling that you must rely on people with NO formal training in linguistics at all, no standing in related fields of study, and also on frauds published by ANTI-RELIGON people to support your claims.
I am quite sure that Mr. Ilive is clutching his sides and rolling about on whatever cloud of whatever heaven he might be occupying ATM, tears of laughter rolling down his cheeks and his howls of morth echoeing for eternity as he watches you utilize one of his greatest works of anti-religious literature in attempting to substantiate your YECer fantasies.
Oh there's much more than that to make you gnash your teeth, which is wrotten in the book of Jasher, and in the book of 1 Enoch, and in the OT and NT.
Jasher tells us who was the first Latin king to be deified by his subjects after his death; who Osiris really was [a king of Egypt in Abram's days, who also came to be deified], and how Naples, Italy, got its name; who made the first aqueducts, from where to where, and why, and more -much more.
Jasher tells us the sun and moon stood still in the heavens for nearly a whole day [for 36 moments; whatever those moment measures were, they equaled almost a whole day, says the Word], and that the angels of God fought from heaven against the armies whom Joshua was fighting, with lightning and great hailstones -and the angels killed more than Joshua and his armies did, that day.
THe Word also tells us that the sun, moon, and stars travels in their courses/paths around the earth, and that the earth is fixed in place, from the beginning.
The Word tells us there was no heaven until day 2, to set the sun, moon and stars in,
The Word tells us that God created the Light on day 1, before He created hte heaven on day 2 in which He set the created sun, moon, and stars on day 4.
The Word tells us that God made the heavens by stretching them out between the divided waters, on day 2, and that the waters above the firmament are then, above the stars, sun, and moon.
Enoch also tells us that above the temple of God there is a heaven like clear water, which temple Enoch was taken to, which temple God says is set in the sun, in Psalm 18, in the Hebrew wording and in the Greek Septuagint wording].
Oh yes, indeed! there is lots to make unbelievers who profess themselves to be wise -but who have become fools- to gnash their teeth about, which is written in God's Word.
Mindless. Jasher is pseudopigraphic and the three extant versions we have are proven to have been written in the Middle Ages. Those copies have less credibility than 2 Enoch.
Foolish? What is more foolish? To believe what ones eyes and instruments prove or to pretend it does not exist and believe in a book of fables and myths that has no scientific proof to back it up? The latter is called denial at best, but more than likely delusion.
Gnash my teeth over a Man's Word? Not hardly. Besides, there is only one God, Allah...and Mohammad is His prophet. How do know that the Quran isn't the true Word of God?
BTW, you're still avoiding the question I posed to you. Now why is that?
Barry Fell - invertabrate zoologist with no training in linguistics at all.
"Attack"! "Attack"! says the unbelievers who fear truth!
"No one can learn anything; no one can know anything; no one can open their mouth to say anything" -but what the worshipers of the religion of evolution says they can say! [funny, since Fell is probably an evolutionist, himself, as his work is not "Christian" at all!]
[quote]
Barry attended Wellington College from 1930 to 1935 where he received prizes for his scholarship in science. As a young man Barry knew F. Hutchinson of Napier and accompanied him on field excursions around Hawkes Bay in search of fossils and other natural history objects. In 1935 he entered Victoria University College, then a college of the University of New Zealand, where he completed a BSc and MSc with First Class Honours in Botany in 1938. His awards included a Senior Scholarship in Botany and a Sir George Grey Scholarship in 1938, a Post Graduate Scholarship in Science (declined) and a Shirtcliffe Fellowship in 1939, the latter enabling him to study for his PhD at the University of Edinburgh 1939-41. He was awarded his PhD in 1941 with the thesis "Direct Development in the Ophiuroidea and its Causes". A measure of Barry's ability and potential as a scholar is that his first dozen papers covered such diverse subjects as echinoderm embryology, diet and leprosy, New Zealand biogeography, ancient Maori art, design of a bio-electric research apparatus and avian and human evolution. Five of these papers reached the pages of the journal Nature. War service
By 1941 Barry had joined the British Army as a 2nd Lieutenant. Barry was of an age such that his earliest working life as a scientist was to be interrupted by World War II, like that of so many of his peers. In 1942 he transferred to the Royal Electrical and Mechanical Engineers as a radar specialist and worked at the Antiaircraft Command School in Petersham, Surrey. He became associated with secret work on the development of radar and in the course of that travelled extensively to and fro across the Atlantic. Those students that later became aware of this phase of Barry's life viewed it with some wonder, considering that Barry was a specialist in the life histories of echinoderms! To them Barry did not seem to have any natural ability with mechanical or like things and they relished stories about Barry's misfortunes with his cars. Victoria University
After being released from army service in February 1946 with the rank of major and a commendation from the British War Office, Barry joined the staff of the Biology Department, Victoria University College, as Senior Lecturer in Zoology until 1957 when he became Associate Professor of Zoology. He quickly resumed his interests in echinoderms with great vigour and over the period 1946-1964 produced around 70 papers on the systematics, palaeontology and phylogeny of this group of animals. In particular he comprehensively documented the New Zealand fauna of sea stars and other echinoderms, a task that had been long needed. In his earlier days in Wellington he was one of a small group of local zoologists who met together at soires at the house of the noted entomologist G.V. Hudson. In 1948 he was President of the Association of Scientific Workers, guiding its early and at times difficult formative years. Barry's remarkable research productivity continued for some years after he left New Zealand in 1964 and established him as a distinguished authority on the echinoderms along with the great names of L. and A. Agassiz, H. L. Clark and E. Deichmann, all at the Museum of Comparative Zoology, Harvard University. Many of his publications were works of great importance, often cited to this day. He provided new and unique perspectives on his discipline, a quality that became a feature of the later phase of his working life. Except for a few, though admittedly significant joint works on echinoderms, Barry was the sole author of these publications. Barry's work on the early pelagic life of most echinoderms committed him to a philosophy of long-distance, overseas dispersal to explain the distribution of these and other animals. He thus came into conflict with those who espoused the emerging theory of plate tectonics ("continental drift") that would account in a different way for animal distributions. Students of that time well recall Barry's vigorous debate in a class meeting with John Bradley, a member of the Geology Department, and found that Barry could be more than a gentle, scholarly, and retiring academic. They also remember Barry's overwhelming excitement and enthusiasm when he demonstrated to them the photographic evidence he had discovered allowing him to propose a revolutionary new reclassification of sea-stars. Barry made a lasting impression on undergraduate students as a lecturer, especially for the clarity of his presentations and the masterly way he could represent in blackboard sketches the complexity of invertebrate and vertebrate form and structure. For his contributions in the whole field of echinoderm biology, particularly fossil echinoids, Barry was awarded a DSc by the University of Edinburgh in 1955. He became a Fellow of The Royal Society of New Zealand in 1960, received the Society's Hector Research Medal in 1959, its Hutton Memorial Medal in 1962, and was also the Society's Hudson Lecturer. He became a Fellow of the American Academy of Arts and Sciences in 1964. During his latter years at Victoria University Barry gathered around him a small but energetic group of graduate students who themselves became echinoderm specialists, including David L. Pawson who later joined the United States Museum of Natural History, Helen Rotman (nee Clark) and Alan Baker. They, and many others, found Barry to be a helpful, compassionate and greatly respected mentor, in marked contrast to the authoritarian and idiosyncratic stance that the then Head of Zoology, Lawrence Richardson, adopted towards many of his students and staff. Harvard University
The contrast between these two men was marked and eventually a serious rift developed between them, sufficient for Barry to respond in 1964 to several invitations that had been made to him to join Harvard University's Museum of Comparative Zoology in Boston as Curator in Invertebrate Zoology. He later became Professor of Invertebrate Zoology, continuing his wide-ranging phylogenetic studies on echinoderms. As well he gained a singular reputation amongst undergraduate students for his innovative presentations and text-books on natural history of a style that had not been heard or seen for many years. He remained at Harvard until 1979, when he accepted voluntary retirement and he and Rene moved to San Diego, California. Harvard to San Diego: from echinoderms to epigraphy
Barry was an extraordinary linguist, learning to speak and write during his early student days in Maori, Latin, French, German and Ancient and Modern Greek. During his time at Edinburgh he learnt Danish fluently enough to lecture in it, and also spent time on the coast of northwest Scotland to learn Gaelic. Later he acquired a working knowledge of Russian, Sanskrit, Egyptian hieroglyphics and more than a dozen other languages of Africa, Asia and America. Around 1973, while still at Harvard and lecturing in marine biology, his coupled interests in numismatics, languages and animal distribution led him to switch his attention to ancient cultures, scripts and engraving on wood and stone (epigraphy). While there was some understandable official concern with this move, Harvard chose (and was able) to tolerate Barry's somewhat abrupt abandonment of echinoderm research for these new interests. At Harvard he was near to the great collections of inscribed tablets and like objects at the Smithsonian Institution and elsewhere and was able to make great use of the computing facilities available there in those early days in order to translate hitherto obscure ancient scripts. These enlarging interests, and the wholesale rejection of his findings that he evoked in the conservative establishment, led him to found the Epigraphic Society in 1974, as its first President, so as to provide an outlet for his writings. Today, more than 20 years on, the Society flourishes, with worldwide membership. Barry quickly became totally immersed in epigraphy and accumulated an encyclopaedic knowledge in this field, publishing three controversial but very popular books on pre-Columbian migrations of humans to North America from Europe.
He was immensely and very ably assisted in these endeavours by his wife Rene. His books not only resulted in great debate and criticism in the United States in particular, but also elicited a flood of epigraphic material sent to him from all over the world, allowing him to develop his ideas further. Barry began to publish his specific findings almost wholly in the journal "The Polynesian Epigraphic Society Occasional Publications", eventually to become broadened in scope to "The Epigraphic Society Occasional Papers". The essence of these many and wide-ranging publications was a demonstration, at least to Barry's (and others) complete satisfaction, of an ancient link between North African (Phoenician or Carthaginian) peoples, trade routes and cultural influences and Polynesian, particularly Maori, cultures. Barry was Visiting Professor at the University of Tripoli in 1978 and overnight became a national hero for his demonstration of how to translate ancient ciphers and funerary inscriptions into Arabic and was the recipient of the Tripoli Prize for Arab History in 1980. In addition, he claimed to demonstrate an extensive pre-Columbian colonisation of North America from North Africa and Europe - a source of much of the criticism levelled at him. In recognition of his work, Barry received a string of Honorary Fellowships and awards from scientific and other societies from the United States to Europe, Africa and Polynesia. It is beyond the scope of this obituary and the competence of its author to evaluate Fell's propositions, suffice to say that they have been widely accepted by some and considered as heretical, and certainly extravagant, by others. Barry's adversaries in this lengthy saga were envious of his success and frequently bitter in their condemnation of him and his theories though they were often unable to document the evidence necessary to reject them. Many of his critics of the 1970s and 1980s could well have benefited from the advice given to Archbishop Desmond Tutu by his mother: "Do not raise your voice, strengthen your argument." Barry's additional interests in astronomy, sculpture, poetry and music, and his deep commitment to scholarship inevitably led him into a somewhat ascetic life as a pathfinder in biology, linguistics and epigraphy. He would undoubtedly have wished to carry it on in this manner, without the controversy that his writings had generated, but that was not to be. His singular contributions to knowledge can perhaps be best expressed in the words that Barry himself once used in honouring his own professor at Victoria University College, Harry Borrer Kirk: Exigi monumentum aere perennis (Horace) - "I have reared a monument more lasting than bronze." Peter H J Castle
Isaac Mozeson - An Edenicists who, again, has no formal training in linguistics, and like Fell, has no standing in the Linguistics Community in the least as both men make wild an unsubstantiated claims not founded in reality in the least.
Attack! Attack! Lie! Obfuscate! Deny and Subvert!
Never let it be known that the educated early fathers of America believed Hebrew to be the mother tongue!
Quote:
Isaac Mozeson: Introduction to The WORD...
his book has roots in my own history in Plymouth, Massachusetts. As a child I would take Sabbath morning walks to places where I read the Hebrew tombstones and diaries of pilgrims like William Bradford. Governor Bradford was a new Hebrew in the Promised Land of America. (He reverently desired to study God's word in its original tongue; I don't know why so many Christians and Jews have settled for less.)
The curriculum of Harvard was full of Hebrew, and an early graduate thesis at Harvard concerned Hebrew as the Mothertongue.
Noah Webster's etymologies (discredited for 200 years now) were full of English words traced to "Shemitic" sources. Most significant of all, if a vote in the Continental Congress had gone the other way, America and much of today's world, would now be speaking Hebrew.
Hebrew was considered and voted on, along with French and English, to be the language of the New American nation, as the founding fathers believed Hebrew to be the mother tongue of all languages.
"Book of Jasher" - Written in 1751, claiming to have been "found while on pilgramage" and translated by "Flaccus Albinus Alcuinus" Abbott of Canterbury. Only thing was the language of the book showed it to be a fraud written long after the good Abbot had lived, and the purpetrator, a printer named Jacob Ilive, was sentanced to 5 years in English prison in 1756 for fraud connected with the "Book of Jasher" and also for publishing radical anti-religous pamphlets as well.
Obfuscate! Mislead! Subvert! -Never let anyone see that there is indeed a real Book of Jasher which correlates with the OT, which was indeed known and spoken of at least in 'modern' times, since the 1600's, [Josephus had the real Book of Jasher, in the second 1st and 2nd century], and which was translated from the Hebrew to English in 1840! Which book has been linked to by me from this thread.
The first step in dealing with the question of authenticity is to simply read the book with an open mind. One cannot effectively investigate the matter unless he is familiar with it. After all, according to Solomon, "He who answers a matter before he hears it, It is folly and shame to him". (Proverbs 18:13). The reader will find that it reads very much like the Bible, except that many passages are replete with details that are not recorded in the Bible.
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In actuality, we have a wonderful example of just such a fraud. I have in my possession three different works that go by the title Sepher Hayasher or The Book of Jasher. This first is, of course, this book. The second is the 13th century ethical treatise that I mentioned earlier. It makes no claim to being the Biblical Jasher and would never be taken for it. The third book is widely recognized for the fraud that it is. It has been republished by the Rosicrucian Order. It claims to have been discovered by Flaccus Albinus Alcuinus, Abbot of Canterbury in the 8th century, while on a pilgrimage. It is the briefest outline of the first six books of the Bible, consisting of about 70 pages of large print. It contains no useful details, and only the barest account of the familiar Hebrew stories. It seems to have been prepared hastily and with little attention to detail. The most obvious feature is that it claims to be the work of a man named Jasher who was the son of Caleb and one of the Judges of Israel. This seems to be its entire reason for existence. It is clear that the author had no real knowledge of Hebrew and failed to recognize that Jasher is not a proper noun. It is not anybody's name. It rather carries the meaning of the upright book or the faithful record. Clearly this book is a fake. It has all the characteristics that you would expect to see in a forgery. It is very brief and contains no unique information except the one thing that is so absurd as to expose it as a hoax. So the contrast between that imitation and this book is very telling. It is easy to see which is genuine.
Finally, consider how Josephus described the Book of Jasher. He said "by this book are to be understood certain records kept in some safe place on purpose, giving an account of what happened among the Hebrews from year to year, and called Jasher or the upright, on account of the fidelity of the annals." There could be no better description of the book you see before you. The bottom line is that you, as the reader, will have to answer the question of legitimacy for yourself. Whichever side of that issue you take, I think that you will be enlightened by exploring the issue and by reading the book. If you feel as I do, that this book has the powerful credentials to commend it as the biblical Book of Jasher, you will now have in your hands an additional source to investigate when studying the Bible. You will also have much food for thought in regard to the issues of conventional chronology in ancient times.
"Attack"! "Attack"! says the unbelievers who fear truth!
"No one can learn anything; no one can know anything; no one can open their mouth to say anything" -but what the worshipers of the religion of evolution says they can say! [funny, since Fell is probably an evolutionist, himself, as his work is not "Christian" at all!]........
......Attack! Attack! Lie! Obfuscate! Deny and Subvert!
Never let it be known that the educated early fathers of America believed Hebrew to be the mother tongue!
In a court of law a prospective "Expert Witness'" credentials are examined to determine if they are, indeed, qualified in the area of concern. One doesn't call a general medical doctor as an expert witness to determine how long a corpse has been lieing a the crime scene, for example, one calls a forensic scientist.
In the (as usual) spam you posted, there is NO mention of any credentials of Mr. Fell concerning the area of linguistics. Merely being able to speak several languages does not make one an expert of linguistics, ie the history and evolution of said language. And whether he was an evolutionist or not, matters not, his materials have not stood up to simple peer review.
Same goes for Isaac Mozeson, absolutely no credentials in linguistics and, quite obviously, little knowledge of early US history.
Quote:
Originally Posted by yeshuasavedme
Hebrew was considered and voted on, along with French and English, to be the language of the New American nation, as the founding fathers believed Hebrew to be the mother tongue of all languages.
I'm sorry that I have to inform you (sorry that you base your entire world views on complete fantasy, well, more like embarrassed actually) that the Founding Fathers never voted on any official language of the United States.
The closest thing to any form of language legislatio in our early history was a petition put before Congress by a small German community in Virgina in 1794 to have US laws printed in both English and German.
Pseudoscientific language comparison is a form of pseudoscience that has the objective of establishing historical associations between languages by alleging similarities between them. While comparative linguistics also studies the historical relationships of languages, linguistic comparisons are considered pseudoscientific by linguists when they are not based on the established practices of comparative linguistics, or on the more general principles of the scientific method. Pseudoscientific language comparison is usually performed by persons with little or no specialization in the field of comparative linguistics. It is the most widespread type of linguistic pseudoscience--i.e., your attempt to correlate ancient Greek, an Indo-European language with Algonquin.
The Algonquin do not belong to the same tribe. Algonquin is a family of related languages, but it has many dialects, not all of which are mutually intelligible. Algonquin-speaking peoples dominated most of the northeastern North America with the exception of Iroquian-speakers in New York, northern Pennsylvania and southern Ontario. Their range extended from Hudson Bay southward along the Atlantic coast to North Carolina and west to the Mississippi River. On the Great Plains, Algonquin speakers would include Cheyenne, Arapaho, Gros Ventres, Blackfoot, Cree, and Ojibwe, and some have even suggested that the Wiyot and Yurok in northern California speak a distant form of Algonquin. The dialect of the Algonquin themselves is closely related to that of the Ojibwe, Ottawa, and Potawatomi. Algonquin belongs to the Algic family of languages, and is descended from Proto-Algonquian. It is considered a particularly divergent dialect of Ojibwe by many, acting as a transitional language between the Ojibwe languages and the Abenaki languages.
The Algonquin language uses bilabial, alveolar, and velar stops which can be voiceless, voiced, or aspirated, along with a glottal "h" sound. Greek has none of these attributes. The Greek language uses a simplified system of vowels and diphthongs along with the replacement of the pitch accent with a stress accent.
The majority of Proto-Indo European languages have borrowed from the Greek. But Algonquin is not an Indo-European language and they did not--why you may ask? Because the Native Americans whose ancestors have been on the North American continent for approximately 14,500 years had NO contact with the Greeks....
You're really grasping at straws to make your argument there YSM. You should just give it up and go stick your head back in the sod with the rest of the ostriches.
Dont mess with the anthropologist. Linguistics IS one of the four subfields of Anthropology and I've done my time in more Linguistics classes than I care to remember.
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