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[/color]Originally Posted by MontanaGuy
What about the millions of people who lived and died before Jesus was even born? Obviously they couldn't have accepted Christ who hadn't even existed yet.
They believed/had faith in God and the coming Messiah. In Romans, chap. 4, Paul talks of Abraham:
v. 3 For what does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness." (Gen. 15:6)
v.13 For the promise that he would be the heir of the world was not to Abraham or to his seed through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.
So all those who had FAITH prior to the death and resurrection of Christ were counted righteous by God.
Unlike Montanaguy, I do believe in God and I do have faith. Since I don't go to church, I'm not baptized, and I don't believe in the whole Jesus the Messiah thing, according to Christians I'm still going to hell. Pretty "unfair" if you ask me.
I think though what montanaguy was trying to ask was - or if he wasn't, I am - what about those guys waaaaay before Jesus/the Messiah got started? Egypt or even way back like cavemen times? Or, the Chinese existed for 2000 years before Christ with no mention of the Messiah (at least not that I know of). Are those folks in hell?
That's what I thought you probably meant but if that's the case then the answer to my question is that Christianity is not fair. How could any reasonable person expect someone in a remote place like Mongolia who might have heard of Christianity but would know little about it and not relate to it in any cultural way to accept Jesus as their savior? It just doesn't make any sense. You've probably read some of my posts and know I'm an atheist. My point is not to offend Christians but to try to understand what people think and what motivates them. In my mind this method of sorting out who goes to heaven or hell could not be the work of a loving and all knowing God. It has all of the qualities of a religion that was invented by human beings with all of their faults and prejudices. I mean no offense to anyone, it's just an honest opinion. Do any of you who are Christians see why I'm coming to this conclusion?
I know it's a bit long, but I hope you find it worth reading. The following excerpts were written by Dr. Ronald Shultz:
You must remember that when Noah got off the ark there was only one faith. Everyone on earth knew the true God. As the generations passed people added to and took away from the truth that was known about God. Thus God chose various men to reveal Himself too and had them write Scripture and did things through them to set the record straight. Those who accepted Him spread the Word to others but then people fell away again over and over. Christ came in the fullness of times to set the record straight even among the Jews whose rabbis had said crazy things about His Word and Jesus had to say, You have heard it said ... but I say unto you" throughout His ministry and He revealed things that they had not understood at all. He then used the workers of the NT to show wht we should believe from now until the end and take the message to every creature. Read Romans 1, Hebrews 11 and Matthew 28 to see what I am saying.
Well, we fell down on the job taking it to every creature and men got their nose in a bend and starting writing their theologies to add to and take away from the Word and we have this mess of many denominations even ones who say that they aren't one or that they are intra-denominational and we have confusion and chaos not ordained by God. That does make it rough on those who are so close to salvation and yet so far away so what about the folks who are not even close?
The Bible speaks of Creation being the testimony of God. The fact that there are any Jews alive after millenia of persecution is proof of God. If a person will respond to the light that God has given them He will give them more light.
There was an African Chief standing out on the plain and looking at the Creation who said something like "I know what my ancestors have taught but I would like to know the God who made all this." As he finished a small breeze came up and a piece of paper wrapped around his leg. It was a Gospel tract from a missionary about thirty miles away. The Chief walked the thirty miles and was saved and took the missionary back to his village and they all accepted Christ. I have lots of stories like this. God is not willing that any should perish so if someone shows the desire to know the truth He will lead them to the truth. If they reject the light given then there is little reason to give them more. If the Chief would have clung to his ancestral gods and never questioned who created the world then he would have never been saved but maybe another in his village may have asked. If a person looks at Creation and rejects it saying that it is all the result of an explosion creating chaos that created order contrary to all evidence and laws then there is nothing else that can be done until he rejects his theories and accepts Creation.
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It's not up to us to decide that. Who are we to question God's ways? We are nothing. Just because someone is born and raised in a muslim country in no way means God can't and wont save them. We must remember it is up to God not up to us. The old saying is true, "but for the grace of God go I."
Unlike Montanaguy, I do believe in God and I do have faith. Since I don't go to church, I'm not baptized, and I don't believe in the whole Jesus the Messiah thing, according to Christians I'm still going to hell. Pretty "unfair" if you ask me.
I think though what montanaguy was trying to ask was - or if he wasn't, I am - what about those guys waaaaay before Jesus/the Messiah got started? Egypt or even way back like cavemen times? Or, the Chinese existed for 2000 years before Christ with no mention of the Messiah (at least not that I know of). Are those folks in hell?
There was no earlier time than the beginning and Jesus was there! John 1:1-4
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. v 2 He was in the beginning with God. v 3 All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made. v 4 In Him was life, and the life was the light of men.
Jesus is the Word....Rev. 19:13 "...and His name is called The Word of God."
John 1:14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth."
Those who did not have faith are dead in the grave or wherever. They will be resurrected and judged in the end.
There was no earlier time than the beginning and Jesus was there! John 1:1-4
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. v 2 He was in the beginning with God. v 3 All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made. v 4 In Him was life, and the life was the light of men.
Jesus is the Word....Rev. 19:13 "...and His name is called The Word of God."
John 1:14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth."
Those who did not have faith are dead in the grave or wherever. They will be resurrected and judged in the end.
You must remember that when Noah got off the ark there was only one faith.
Well, right off the bat I can't accept the whole Noah's ark story. It's difficult to engage in this conversation because I think the Christian people who have made comments on this thread are most likely decent people whose intentions are good but my point of view is so completely different that it's going to sound offensive or insulting if I say what I think. Please don't take it that way because it's not my intention. It's my opinion that as civilizations and societies developed mankind had spread across much of the globe. Most of these groups of people were isolated from one another and they created their own cultures, languages and mythologies. Human beings had no knowledge of the origins of life and their own existence and they used the most powerful tool they had to explain it, their own imaginations. As various civilizations flourished they came into contact with other human beings whose cultures and religions were completely different than their own. These cultures and religions were seen as a base of power and authority. When one nation conquered another they forced their culture and religion on the people they had conquered. The modern religions we have in the world today are the end result of the conflict and influences of the centuries that preceded us. They did not come from a God. They came from men. The reason that America is a Christian nation is based on the twists and turns of history not on the intervention of a supernatural God. The prejudice and hatred of one culture versus another was the basis for my question about the fairness of Christianity.
I'm not offended and thank you for being kind in your opposition to what we believe. On the other hand, why ask a Christian a question if you don't want a Christian answer?
Wow you've managed to mix religion, christianity and race all in one paragraph. This on-going issue about being/getting saved being reserved for just christians is the biggest load of nonsense. And this is one of the reasons why this country will never progress, because of the anti-intellectual nature of organized religions.
Wow you've managed to mix religion, christianity and race all in one paragraph. This on-going issue about being/getting saved being reserved for just christians is the biggest load of nonsense. And this is one of the reasons why this country will never progress, because of the anti-intellectual nature of organized religions.
If i were you, I'd stay as far away from those nonsense babbling Christians. I wouldn't even want to be seen on the same web page with them!
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