The "Flying Spaghetti Monster" straw man (genesis, spirits, protestants)
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That makes no sense in the context of our discussion.... etc
No it's not. To understand humans and the humanities is very relevant in any discussion of our beliefs or concepts. If you do not wish it to be relevant, again that's your problem not mine.
As for specifics I'll try one more time.
Spaghetti is clearly something made by people. It does not exist outside of people or in nature. Nor did it exist for most of human history. So a "spaghetti monster" is obviously a man-made invention.
Further there is no millennia of human experiences and studies of such a being. There is nothing equivalent to Joan of Arc, Lourdes, Fatima, Euler, Solzhenitsyn, Plantinga, Anscombe, Maritain, Swinburne, Eliot, Cantor, Godel, or Martin Luther King Jr. for FSM. It just doesn't exist. William Butler Yeats and Arthur Conan Doyle are the only noted voices I can think of for fairies. However even with fairies the concept does not have as much support or value in human experience, need, or culture.
Things like FSM or fairies are almost ways of retreating. It's a way to say "I can not deal with God and therefore I will deal with something else instead." So perhaps I was wrong and it truly is a strawman.
However I think many of the atheists arguing this way are not being at all honest. You probably can deal with God, but you'd rather just stick your tongue and then gussy that action up like you're the ones being insulted. Well some people are going to call you on nonsense. You don't like that you can always scurry back to the atheist forum.
Note: I'm aware you'll translate this to "No 'blah blah blah' scurry back to the atheist forum"
You know I didn't like Donnie Darko, but it did strike me that it was an inversion of two famous Jimmy Stewart movies.
It's A Wonderful Life - Instead of a man learning the world is better off for him a boy learns the world, or at least his girlfriend, might have been better off if he'd died.
Harvey - An invisible rabbit makes an already mentally ill person appear much more disturbing rather than make a previously sane person seem crazy in a lovable way.
I just assumed those were intentional allusions, but I rarely see anyone else say it.
Further there is no millennia of human experiences and studies of such a being. There is nothing equivalent to Joan of Arc, Lourdes, Fatima, Euler, Solzhenitsyn, Plantinga, Anscombe, Maritain, Swinburne, Eliot, Cantor, Godel, or Martin Luther King Jr. for FSM. It just doesn't exist. William Butler Yeats and Arthur Conan Doyle are the only noted voices I can think of for fairies. However even with fairies the concept does not have as much support or value in human experience, need, or culture.
You are wasting your considerable intellectual acumen on those who have no capacity for deep philosophical thought or educated literary analyses. They truly are "12 year-old taunts." with nothing better to do with their time . . . it probably being worth very little in the current economy. These are really NOT deep thinkers, Thomas . . . really NOT!
You are wasting your considerable intellectual acumen on those who have no capacity for deep philosophical thought or educated literary analyses. They truly are "12 year-old taunts." with nothing better to do with their time . . . it probably being worth very little in the current economy. These are really NOT deep thinkers, Thomas . . . really NOT!
Oh I suppose. They have made occasional points about the Bible I'm uncertain how to respond to. There are some Papal encyclicals that vex me.
One thing is I don't see why that would inevitably lead to atheism and I never really get the explanation there. When they're debating Christianity I have to reluctantly admit they give me pause at times. When they're debating God they then veer in a more juvenile direction or insist that their assumptions on reality are the only valid ones. So I guess it makes me tempted to ask a question again that often comes to me.
Why aren't they just non-Christian theists and deists? What is about atheism that is preferable to just being irreligious yet not atheist? Is it really just "I don't want to believe in things science can't prove"? And if that's all it is what do they think of justice, romance, empathy, or intuition?
No it's not. To understand humans and the humanities is very relevant in any discussion of our beliefs or concepts. If you do not wish it to be relevant, again that's your problem not mine.
how is studying "humanities" going to show that FSM is a strawman.. I don't get it..
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thomas R.
As for specifics I'll try one more time.
Spaghetti is clearly something made by people. It does not exist outside of people or in nature. Nor did it exist for most of human history. So a "spaghetti monster" is obviously a man-made invention.
"God" is clearly something made by people. It does not exist outside of people or in nature. Nor did it exist for most of human history. So, "god monster" is obviously a man-made invention. dun dun duuuunnnnnnn.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thomas R.
Further there is no millennia of human experiences and studies of such a being. There is nothing equivalent to Joan of Arc, Lourdes, Fatima, Euler, Solzhenitsyn, Plantinga, Anscombe, Maritain, Swinburne, Eliot, Cantor, Godel, or Martin Luther King Jr. for FSM. It just doesn't exist. William Butler Yeats and Arthur Conan Doyle are the only noted voices I can think of for fairies. However even with fairies the concept does not have as much support or value in human experience, need, or culture.
So we can knock of scientology and mormonism... wait
People believe the earth was flat, demons cause sickness etc etc, yet that doesn't validate their beliefs.. I suppose you are going to switch over to any religion that is older then your own... right?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thomas R.
Things like FSM or fairies are almost ways of retreating. It's a way to say "I can not deal with God and therefore I will deal with something else instead." So perhaps I was wrong and it truly is a strawman.
"magic, invisible, intangible, all powerful, all knowing, omnipresent man done it", is about as convincing as the "FSM or Fairies done it"..
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thomas R.
However I think many of the atheists arguing this way are not being at all honest. You probably can deal with God, but you'd rather just stick your tongue and then gussy that action up like you're the ones being insulted. Well some people are going to call you on nonsense. You don't like that you can always scurry back to the atheist forum.
Note: I'm aware you'll translate this to "No 'blah blah blah' scurry back to the atheist forum"
You are projecting. I never pretended to be insulted you did. Yes... the definitions of words are "nonsense" (that's sarcasm if you can't tell). I don't like the atheist forum. Its too reasonable..... I like to debate.
FSM is clearly a satire of your theistic religion not a straw man.
By this entire post, you clearly understand that the only difference between your theistic religion, and the theistic religion of FSM is time..
From my point of view you are trying to claim something even more impossible as this is true.
You are wasting your considerable intellectual acumen on those who have no capacity for deep philosophical thought or educated literary analyses. They truly are "12 year-old taunts." with nothing better to do with their time . . . it probably being worth very little in the current economy. These are really NOT deep thinkers, Thomas . . . really NOT!
You need to watch this video, maybe you will finally realized why I have a problem with you type of "philosophical thought".
how is studying "humanities" going to show that FSM is a strawman.. I don't get it.
There are many things you don't get. That human culture or history could be one of them is largely my point.
If you can't see the difference between God and FSM than this implies a poor grasp of culture and the humanities. Or it could be because of a narrow literalism or some other difficulty.
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Originally Posted by Gplex
"God" is clearly something made by people. It does not exist outside of people or in nature. Nor did it exist for most of human history.
This is "opinion as fact" rather than an actual fact. Many people certainly believe this, but it's merely a claim not an argument or evidence of anything.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gplex
So we can knock of scientology and mormonism... wait
Yes, but not for the reasons you are implying. Both Scientology and Mormonism have core claims that can be verified by science or the humanities and are also disproved. There was no ancient Jewish kingdom in the Americas and psychiatric medicines do help certain people. Several forms of Christian fundamentalism can also be rejected for similar reasons.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gplex
People believed the earth was flat, demons caused sickness etc etc, yet that doesn't validate their beliefs.. I suppose you are going to switch over to any religion that is older then your own... right?
Those were claims about natural phenomenon. Those things are properly the subject of science, particularly if we mean repeatable natural phenomenon.
As for age it's just one factor not all. A belief system that survives for millennia in some isolated spot is likely not being tested. It's also not being shown as universal. Christianity has managed to survive in numerous cultures, including those where it was always a minority, for many centuries.
There are a few other religions that could be said of, but I find Christianity more compelling than those. Unlike Judaism or Zoroastrianism it is not as based in a specific tribe. It seems to me if something is true it is probably going to be more than just a specific tribal issue. I see it as less undermining of material reality than Buddhism. In Buddhism one detaches yourself from nature and desire, in Christianity nature is flawed but not something to flee. We unite with Christ as a physical being and will have physical bodies in the afterlife. The study of nature is therefore potentially of greater value. And I could get into more, but will demure.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gplex
"magic, invisible, intangible, all powerful, all knowing, omnipresent man done it", is about as convincing as the "FSM or Fairies done it".
In your opinion. In this case your opinion does not conform actual reality that the majority of the world's people have lived or experience. People did not build hospitals for the fairies. They did not credit the fairies for getting them off alcohol or curing an incurable illness. They certainly did not credit the Flying Spaghetti Monster with building a spiral staircase or helping them with theorems of transfinite numbers.
Your inability to see the difference is unfortunate or represents a lacuna in your education, but that's about all. It says nothing real and I think human history or anthropology supports that it says nothing real.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gplex
You are projecting. I never pretended to be insulted you did. Yes... the definitions of words are "nonsense" (that's sarcasm if you can't tell). I don't like the atheist forum. Its too reasonable..... I like to debate.
FSM is clearly a satire of your theistic religion not a straw man.
By this entire post, you clearly understand that the only difference between your theistic religion, and the theistic religion of FSM is time..
Well there's also the intellectuals I mentioned, the actual experiences of thousands of people, actual events in history, and so forth. You did understand more of what I wrote than I gave you credit. Perhaps I can look for some books for you to read so you can be able to argue with me on a more even level next time.
Last edited by Thomas R.; 10-31-2009 at 01:42 AM..
In none of those is a cartoon image of a food product worshiped in itself and for itself. I don't even think you people believe what you're saying, it's just "anything to take a potshot at Christianity."
One phrase: manna from heaven
Other than that, why does it matter to me what god you choose to believe in? And why does it matter to you what god (or lack there of) I choose to believe in?
Spaghetti is clearly something made by people. It does not exist outside of people or in nature. Nor did it exist for most of human history. So a "spaghetti monster" is obviously a man-made invention.
And exactly how do you know that the invention of spaghetti was not inspired (such as various theist items) by the FSM?
Quote:
Further there is no millennia of human experiences and studies of such a being. There is nothing equivalent to Joan of Arc, Lourdes, Fatima, Euler, Solzhenitsyn, Plantinga, Anscombe, Maritain, Swinburne, Eliot, Cantor, Godel, or Martin Luther King Jr. for FSM. It just doesn't exist. William Butler Yeats and Arthur Conan Doyle are the only noted voices I can think of for fairies. However even with fairies the concept does not have as much support or value in human experience, need, or culture.
And before each of the beings you cite, there were no studies and no proof either. You can't accept anything new in the world? FSM is just getting started. Give him some time. After all, it took over 2000 years for your christianity to get where it is, and it is still in doubt.
Quote:
Things like FSM or fairies are almost ways of retreating. It's a way to say "I can not deal with God and therefore I will deal with something else instead." So perhaps I was wrong and it truly is a strawman.
Or, it could be a way of saying that your god is found to be inadequate so people are searching for an alternative.
Quote:
However I think many of the atheists arguing this way are not being at all honest. You probably can deal with God, but you'd rather just stick your tongue and then gussy that action up like you're the ones being insulted. Well some people are going to call you on nonsense. You don't like that you can always scurry back to the atheist forum.
Well, thankfully what you think has no bearing on the reality and existence of the real world.
You know, FSM, bless his noodlieness, has been really good to me this last month. I have been blessed with 4 contracts and what do you know, I did not even ask his noodliness that I was in need of new income in this depressed economy. My cell phone has not stopped ringing, I have been getting hits from my website (that has been essentially redundant) from folk in remote cities that I can service. PTP (Praizze teh Pasta) he really knows what I need before I even ask it, amazing!
OR
Could it merely be that folk are learning of my superior workmanship by word of mouth, my website finally is paying dividends, I can afford to advertise again?
Anyways, I give all credit to the benevolent FSM, who always knows what I need even before I ask or forget to ask for it. PHN (Praaize His Noodliness)
OR
Sometime good things happen to us heathen?
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That makes no sense in the context of our discussion.... etc
