Quote:
Originally Posted by Campbell34
It is a Medieval mentality that would imbrace your opinion. And it is an Atheist who spent the better part of his life in Africa, who is now telling you Africa needs the Christian God. And he is telling you this, not because he himself believes in God. But because he sees the transformation in the lives of Africans who now follow Christ. The God that allows the murders and rapes, is the same God that allowed the people of this world to nail Him to a cross. He had free will to get out of that. Yet He allowed that to occur, so that anyone who wanted eternal life, could have it. And common sense, has nothing to do with holier than thou. Live a pure life before God, and the spread of Aids will be limited.
And dare anyone try to stop the murder mills of abortion. Of course anyone who would, is said to be guilty of religious, intolerance. I wonder if you would feel the same way, if a doctor was about to stick a knife in the back of your skull, so he could suck out your brains? We can speak with such ease when it's not are pound of flesh on the chopping block. And we can always give good reasons why someone else has to die. And yet in the same breath, you will tell us how insensitive those people are who are actually trying to protect life. Give me a break.
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I WILL not give you a break. You have NO right to tell a woman what to do with her body. No more than some African tribes have the right to excise the clitoris in genital mutilation so women do not know sexual pleasure because it is "dirty" . My body is my own.
Unless a woman is forced to have an abortion then it is her own business. I personally find abortion a sad and terribly regrettable thing. I think very few women choose it as an afternoon's idea of a pleasure trip and the very vast majorty of women do so after thinking long and hard about it. To imply anything else is grossly offensive. In a perfect world ( one maybe where your God actually does his job) only women who want children would have them. Sadly we live in the real world where for a myriad of reasons women having children is the worst thing possible.
Abortion to me is a waste and I find it tragic and sad . But at the end of the day I will NOT carry a child for 9 months and give birth if I do not want to. Had my father raped me , were my life be in danger and yes even if for other reasons I retain the right to my body. Period.
Education and better contraception are the only way to lower the rates of abortion. Abstinence is simply not a viable nor realistic option. if you want to delude yourself it is then I can't do anything about that.
I do not like abortions any more than the next person. Nobody says abortions are desirable. Nobody likes abortions. Nobody is "Pro-abortion". Pro-choice is not the same as "pro-abortion". But necessary they often can be.
I do not hold with promiscuity either by the way despite my deeply heart-felt Atheism. I have little respect for women/men who sleep around and find it disateful and "immoral". However unlike you I realise that abortions must remain a choice for women . My body not yours. I do not tell you what to do with your body don't tell me what to do with mine.
A baby remains a foetus until it is born. And yes I do recognise that the more advanced the pregnancy the more "human" a foetus begins. But to me life begins at birth NOT at conception.
To force a woman to have a child is inhuman , degrading and an act of savage violence far worse than abortion to me anyway. Physically , psychologicaly and mentally debilitating as well as more often than not for the child also.
I wish there were no abortions. I really, really do. But I will not condemn a woman for chosing what is best for her. At the end of the day the woman takes precedent because she is alive.
Regarding the rest of your post, Africa's problems will not be solved by Christianity any more than they will be solved by any other "one size fits all" solution.
Problems in Cameroon are vastly different than problems in the DRG or Mozambique , South Africa or Mali. Africa is a vast continent consisting of so many ethnicities, cultures and languages that our Western notion of "salvation" is simply not only irrelevent it is downright ignorant of all its ramifications and complexities.
Christianity has failed in Africa . Christianity has tried to change the face of Africa for the last 400 years and failed. Christianity is as Medieval as Animism in many respects and both are not going to make the blindest bit of difference to human suffering .
Africas AIDS epidemic is not the wrath of God visited on his children ( talk about a tough-love Daddy...) , it is a disease . A genetic mutation of chemical interactions.
It can only be combated with education , contraception, and the creation of economic , political and social stability. Foreign AID is obviously not working as it only offers a short term solution to a long term problem.
Women who are not promiscuous if you want to take the "moral" high road get raped , often as a weapon of war, often in mass-serial rapes.
The pregnancies they endure means giving to babies with AIDS ( your God can create "miracles" like stigmata and making statues weep blood but ask do do something useful like spare the lives of those innocent women and children and where is he then... ????????) .
The women get AIDs, the Babies have AIDS all a terrible vicious circle of human pain and suffering. Then there is the Widow-Cleansing ritual prevalent in many African communities where men will be piad by relatives of a widow to have sex with her to cleanse her and out any evil spirits which may reside within her.
So one guy tells you Africa's problems can be solved with the spread of Christianity and you think you have all the answers. The arrogance is quite breath-taking. I too know people ( Christians and non Christians) who have lived their entire lives in Africa, and worked among the poorest of the poor and their idea of a solution is not quite the same. All are highly intelligent, educated and some are even Africans themselves. Go figure.
A complex history of imperialistic economic slavery and exploitation , of so called "free-trade" , of greed, environmental destruction borne out of greed and a desire for natural resources , of complicated power struggles powered and paid by "special deals" and offers of aid on the condition of... has left Africa a continent adrift in a sea of problems that neither you nor I have a solution for.
The now infamous African political corruption of dictators and psychopathic leaders who exploit their people in the name of international trade and self-agrandissement was fulled by our own desire for riches. We have created some of the monster problems of Africa but I am not sure we have the solution for it.
A continent torn apart and brutally exploited from within but also from without. Christianity is not the solution. It has been part of the problem for 4 centuries or more.
Missionaries have not managed to solve anything at all. A vast part of Africa is Christian. Not much help there. The raping and pillaging of Africa was perpetuated ( and still is) with people who had Christ in their heart and a hefty dose of self righteouness which this continent does not need. Vested interests and religious zeal have done nothing for Africa.
What it needs is true, grown up intelligent and knowledgeable handling of issues so serious we can't even fathom the depth of it.
Culturally sensisitive , African based solutions not our own brand of moral high ground taking crusading. AIDS strikes innocent people. Even those you will consider "immoral" for their promiscuity deserve help and still the vast majority of victims have done nothing to deserve your scorn and glib disrespect..
Grow Up Campbell . You may consider yourself the saviour of the world by your proletysing but some issues are a little more complex than your facile, and offensive statements about a subject you obviously know little about apart from the chosen titbits of "information" and "experts" you so look up to.
Africa and Africans deserve better than glib and "on fits all" solution.
Religion is no more a solution than money and aid are. Long term problems have to be solved with long term solutions and the Gods you worship or not have nothing to do with the depth of poverty, lack of education etc...
As for abortion considering your God allows innocent women to be mass raped in such horrendous ways that their genitals and organs are actually damaged and then give birth to Babies who will be born with AIDS, sorry if I don't really believe believing in him will make the blindest bit of difference.
Any father would would allow his daughters to be abused in such a way because of free will is simply not worth worshipping and bowing and scraping down to. Free will is simply an excuse to explain an obvious lack of loving from a God so self interested he is more concerned with the building of churches and prayers than lifting a finger to help those who desperately need him.. Free will is the weapon of apologists who condone a selfish god's inactions.
Also I resent the implication that people are promiscuous because they have not found your peculiar brand of Christianity.
Most Atheist/Buddhist/Muslims/Hindus etc... I know are morally upstanding people and are no more morally bankrupt than Christians. In fact... well let's not go there , it's probably nicer for me to shut up about my feelings on the subject.
AIDS is a disease not a punishment from God. No more that Leprosy, Cancer or Down Syndrome is a punishment. I was not struck by leukaemia because I did not worship your God. It is simply called nature.
Maybe your God should have found a shred of the humanity , love and compassion he so wants us to be imbued with , within himself and not allowed these horrors to be perpetrated on his beloved children . The innocent ones in particular.
And regarding Abortion again , the spread of AIDS has actually been far quicker because well thinking Christians have poisoned the minds of the local populations with their hell-fire and damnation brand of morality making abortions a no-no. Babies born with AIDS are simply a timebomb to spread the disease. A vicious circle unbroken by inflexible and ridiculous "morality".
Education not religion is needed. Compassion not condemnation. Love not spite. Understanding not judgemental holier than thou garbage spewed out from the ivory tower of a pulpit.
I know some good Christians doing stellar work out in Africa and none of them use their Religion as a way to score points. A good Christian is someone who loves and helps and comforts and someone who instead of pointing out fingers comes up with practical , pragmatic solutions not brandishing words and meaningless scriptures.
People like you are in their own ways as dangerous as the disease itself. The spread of ignorance and arrogance is something which must be stopped.
Back to my "ignore" list. I quite simply haven't got the emotional energy to debate with someone so blinded by irrational faith and simplistic notions of right and wrong.
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I have added links for the information I got. All you need to do is a google search to see where I got my information.
