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The various Discovery, Learning, Science and NatGeo and even History channels have been inundated recently with a barrage of hour-long docu-dramas about recent expeditions to 1) Antarctica, 2) the tombs of Tutankhamen, 3) the African veldt, 4) the frozen plains of the Alaskan Interior, and 5) the depths of the Marianas Trench. The goal?
The emergence of the SPECTACULAR tool of DNA genome mapping has uncovered the true lineage of many organisms. It spells the Death Knell for all those specious arguments from the pseudo-scientific Christian apologist websites where they happily gloat over failed efforts to find "The Missing Link".
Done. Fini. End of Argument. DNA Genome Mapping IS itself the "Missing Link" that scientists used to try so hard to find. That elusive objective has now been mercifully abandoned, only as far as the assumption of some elegant "transitional" species that would prove forever our hominid lineage. Now and in the immediate and foreseeable future, all we'll have to do is look at the DNA of our supposed ancestors and there it all will be.
So what about all those documentaries? They have, independent of each other, found thousands of new species at impossible depths. Or lineages of long-dead and mummified remains. or bits of ancient DNA from frozen dinosaurs and mammoths, or organic plant and animal remnants long buried in the mud of the millenia. They discovered, unequivocally, who King Tut's father was, and possibly who his mother was. They've found mastodon DNA proving it's unequivocal ties to modern elephants. They've found series of genetically linked micro-organisms existing quite happily in the depths of the Antarctic oceans, with clear lineages easily mapped. No, obviously all these species obviously did not arise simultaneously, in one magical week.
(Noah would have had to have captured and kept literally billions of organisms, each with it's own unique environmental requirements, in controlled lab conditions, on his wonder yacht. Riiiiiight....)
Well, thankfully, that rubbish thinking is now, forever, in the trash bin of irrationality.
How does this DNA stuff apply to, say, Evolution? Why, it proves, just as we did with O.J.'s glove, who the perpetrator was. (But back then, this was a nascent science and the general public didn't believe what was placed in front of them. Another story, another time...).
These brave 21st Century new-world scientists will or have accurately placed the evolutionary position, in time and transitional status, of all their finds. What took over a year or so just 2 - 3 years ago, to separate and distinguish the various chromosomes and codons and alleles, is now, apparently, available to anyone with a bank of Apple computers linked to a photogrammmetric analyzer and an amazing new chemical that sort of nicely, cleanly separates out the tangled chromosomes for subsequent optical, and then, digital analysis.
And so what do we get here? Why, reams & volumes & stacks of completely trustable information. Sequences that those computers then compare to other, known DNA genome maps. And what do we see?
1. A chronology of mutational or adaptational "events";
2. A permanent record of the genetic map of the newest "found" species, for use anywhere else in the world, by any team of diligent researchers;
3. A logical chronological progression evolving out of all this work;
4. An undeniable map of how it all came about.
There may always be gaps in the knowledge stream, but now, we can see where those gaps are, and the progress that occurred nonetheless. It'd be like finding a '57 Chrysler in a barn, then a '58, and a '61, but then nothing until we find a '98. Do we need to find all the intervening years (the so-called "Missing Links") to now know we have a series of evolving designs? Essentially, DNA mapping provides a glowing, flashing sign for us that says, right there on the hood of the '98, "Chrysler." Is there any doubt then, of it's lineage? Not for the rational thinker, nope.
With the growing database of DNA maps, exponentially increasing our wealth of understanding, we will be able, in just a few more years, to correctly position any find into it's appropriate Evolutionary position, both as to species "family" and as to time.
So, what was God's intent with all these billions of species that live where no man should have gone to find them? Why do we find clearly identifiable trace "markers" from our past, with accurate indicators of their genetic aging process so reliably embedded in their now easily read genomes? Was God thus using Evolution to achieve species diversity? (The Catholic Church thinks so). Why do we now have living observable Evolution going on in the test tube? What did He have in mind here?
Or did it all happen completely without him, as appears now to be the case, undeniably and irrefutably?
I really dig it when science makes new discoveries and new advances that propel our knowledge of the world and universe forward. But do you really think that most Christians in general and fundamentals, YEC'ers. And flat-earthers are going to accept facts that change their beliefs?
You know what I am talking about. There are several of them on this board...
The various Discovery, Learning, Science and NatGeo and even History channels have been inundated recently with a barrage of hour-long docu-dramas about recent expeditions to 1) Antarctica, 2) the tombs of Tutankhamen, 3) the African veldt, 4) the frozen plains of the Alaskan Interior, and 5) the depths of the Marianas Trench. The goal?
The emergence of the SPECTACULAR tool of DNA genome mapping has uncovered the true lineage of many organisms. It spells the Death Knell for all those specious arguments from the pseudo-scientific Christian apologist websites where they happily gloat over failed efforts to find "The Missing Link".
Done. Fini. End of Argument. DNA Genome Mapping IS itself the "Missing Link" that scientists used to try so hard to find. That elusive objective has now been mercifully abandoned, only as far as the assumption of some elegant "transitional" species that would prove forever our hominid lineage. Now and in the immediate and foreseeable future, all we'll have to do is look at the DNA of our supposed ancestors and there it all will be.
So what about all those documentaries? They have, independent of each other, found thousands of new species at impossible depths. Or lineages of long-dead and mummified remains. or bits of ancient DNA from frozen dinosaurs and mammoths, or organic plant and animal remnants long buried in the mud of the millenia. They discovered, unequivocally, who King Tut's father was, and possibly who his mother was. They've found mastodon DNA proving it's unequivocal ties to modern elephants. They've found series of genetically linked micro-organisms existing quite happily in the depths of the Antarctic oceans, with clear lineages easily mapped. No, obviously all these species obviously did not arise simultaneously, in one magical week.
(Noah would have had to have captured and kept literally billions of organisms, each with it's own unique environmental requirements, in controlled lab conditions, on his wonder yacht. Riiiiiight....)
Well, thankfully, that rubbish thinking is now, forever, in the trash bin of irrationality.
How does this DNA stuff apply to, say, Evolution? Why, it proves, just as we did with O.J.'s glove, who the perpetrator was. (But back then, this was a nascent science and the general public didn't believe what was placed in front of them. Another story, another time...).
These brave 21st Century new-world scientists will or have accurately placed the evolutionary position, in time and transitional status, of all their finds. What took over a year or so just 2 - 3 years ago, to separate and distinguish the various chromosomes and codons and alleles, is now, apparently, available to anyone with a bank of Apple computers linked to a photogrammmetric analyzer and an amazing new chemical that sort of nicely, cleanly separates out the tangled chromosomes for subsequent optical, and then, digital analysis.
And so what do we get here? Why, reams & volumes & stacks of completely trustable information. Sequences that those computers then compare to other, known DNA genome maps. And what do we see?
1. A chronology of mutational or adaptational "events";
2. A permanent record of the genetic map of the newest "found" species, for use anywhere else in the world, by any team of diligent researchers;
3. A logical chronological progression evolving out of all this work;
4. An undeniable map of how it all came about.
There may always be gaps in the knowledge stream, but now, we can see where those gaps are, and the progress that occurred nonetheless. It'd be like finding a '57 Chrysler in a barn, then a '58, and a '61, but then nothing until we find a '98. Do we need to find all the intervening years (the so-called "Missing Links") to now know we have a series of evolving designs? Essentially, DNA mapping provides a glowing, flashing sign for us that says, right there on the hood of the '98, "Chrysler." Is there any doubt then, of it's lineage? Not for the rational thinker, nope.
With the growing database of DNA maps, exponentially increasing our wealth of understanding, we will be able, in just a few more years, to correctly position any find into it's appropriate Evolutionary position, both as to species "family" and as to time.
So, what was God's intent with all these billions of species that live where no man should have gone to find them? Why do we find clearly identifiable trace "markers" from our past, with accurate indicators of their genetic aging process so reliably embedded in their now easily read genomes? Was God thus using Evolution to achieve species diversity? (The Catholic Church thinks so). Why do we now have living observable Evolution going on in the test tube? What did He have in mind here?
Or did it all happen completely without him, as appears now to be the case, undeniably and irrefutably?
One thing's for sure, you can always count on the ID/Creationist crowd to brush off any scientific discovery that runs counter to their philosophy with some pseudo-explanation that their followers will use ad nauseam in debates on why they should be included in science classrooms.
I've asked before whether God stopped creating after the sixth day. Is he still resting or is he back to creating? No responses yet.
Your welcome,I'll give you one more God is in control of the situation,I don't put my trust in man but in Him..
Good to know you're deadset against ever letting facts, logic, and common sense change your mind about anything. Your kind will die out soon enough though, thank goodness. It's fine to believe in a god if it helps you get through your life, but it's pretty silly to hold onto such a dark ages mentality while doing so. If a god exists I bet he's been facepalming himself for the last two millenia.
(Too too phunny-funny, Balvenie. Did you and noland cook this one up?)
noland: Why necessarily "put your trust" in anything or anyone? Incapable of coming to rational decisions on your own perhaps? This, as I've repeatedly seen it over the past 40 years of sentient observation, is one of the major defining characteristics of the truly devout and unthinking religious person.
They, by genetic design perhaps [another interesting potential thread topic], seem to demand and require a "guiding light", a "father figure" to take away all free will or indecision. Like a child, always in need of direction so as to not make the wrong choice and go directly to hell. But hey; then we all grow up! Or at least some of us. Of course, life on this planet is based on "indecision" which becomes "decision" through an honest assessment of the facts at hand, not in blindered faith.
On the other hand there's us scientists, perennially curious and always with the annoying little questions (...which my long-ago minister hated me asking. "Why don't you just stop with those sorts of questions?" he'd almost yell at me. You know; questions like "Father, if God created the earth only 6000 yrs ago, why do we find evidence of things being 2 million years old?").
So now, as we solve those questions at an alarmingly ever-faster rate, the need for indecisiveness or quandary will diminish, and the light of truth shall prevail. Don't you agree? Can theists persist in defending that all this new evidence represents an inaccurate or blatantly hysterical accounting of what's actually going on?
Simpler version: can they hide the truth forever from ever-more educated adults?
Cut to horrified facial expression of a Christian parent educated in the '90s, facing little Johnny, just home from school in the year 2015 with a genome map of his own DNA, comparing it precisely to that of a section of lemur DNA, along with easily ID'd identical sections of some ancient viral DNA, now inactive in both the lemur and the human map, but much older in the lemur's.
Bingo: the light comes on in Johnny's face. "Mom! We came from an early lemur! It's right here!"
______________________________
BTW, noland, you didn't logically answer the points I raised. You just auto-deferred to the predictable "God rules all" dismissal. Nice!. Very credible and convincing. You no doubt quickly change the channel whenever such educational documentaries come on, huh? What was it Al Gore labeled it all? "An Inconvenient Truth" ?
Sorta makes all our points, don't it. Thanks again!
Last edited by rifleman; 02-23-2010 at 10:56 AM..
Reason: adds, typogenesis
(Too too phunny-funny, Balvenie. Did you and noland cook this one up?)
noland: Why necessarily "put your trust" in anything or anyone? Incapable of coming to rational decisions on your own perhaps? This, as I've repeatedly seen it over the past 40 years of sentient observation, is one of the major defining characteristics of the truly devout and unthinking religious person.
They, by genetic design perhaps [another interesting potential thread topic], seem to demand and require a "guiding light", a "father figure" to take away all free will or indecision. Like a child, always in need of direction so as to not make the wrong choice and go directly to hell. But hey; then we all grow up! Or at least some of us. Of course, life on this planet is based on "indecision" which becomes "decision" through an honest assessment of the facts at hand, not in blindered faith.
On the other hand there's us scientists, perennially curious and always with the annoying little questions (...which my long-ago minister hated me asking. "Why don't you just stop with those sorts of questions?" he'd almost yell at me. You know; questions like "Father, if God created the earth only 6000 yrs ago, why do we find evidence of things being 2 million years old?").
So now, as we solve those questions at an alarmingly ever-faster rate, the need for indecisiveness or quandary will diminish, and the light of truth shall prevail. Don't you agree? Can theists persist in defending that all this new evidence represents an inaccurate or blatantly hysterical accounting of what's actually going on?
Simpler version: can they hide the truth forever from ever-more educated adults?
Cut to horrified facial expression of a Christian parent educated in the '90s, facing little Johnny, just home from school in the year 2015 with a genome map of his own DNA, comparing it precisely to that of a section of lemur DNA, along with easily ID'd identical sections of some ancient viral DNA, now inactive in both the lemur and the human map, but much older in the lemur's.
Bingo: the light comes on in Johnny's face. "Mom! We came from an early lemur! It's right here!"
______________________________
BTW, noland, you didn't logically answer the points I raised. You just auto-deferred to the predictable "God rules all" dismissal. Nice!. Very credible and convincing. You no doubt quickly change the channel whenever such educational documentaries come on, huh? What was it Al Gore labeled it all? "An Inconvenient Truth" ?
Sorta makes all our points, don't it. Thanks again!
You mean arrogant adults not educated adults,the better than thou types,you think God doesn't know more than scientists.
You mean arrogant adults not educated adults,the better than thou types,you think God doesn't know more than scientists.
Ah yes, the predictable ad hominem. But one that's widely off the mark.
Arrogance is when someone who has not bothered to learn, to be educated by those who do know more than he or she, or to accept some clearly obvious facts, persists in spouting his version of the facts as if they were absolutely true.
Or perhaps you mean someone who does not even try to look at new evidence, or dismisses it with a hand-wave?
You mean that sort of arrogance?
A "better than thou" type? You mean like those patronizing Christians who will not ever listen to anything but their own ever-more-outdated information?
Perhaps you mean the Christians who present and defend some ill-based websites, full of easily proven lies and undocumented ideas?
Those? You mean those types?
I will suggest, given your responses, that in the areas of genetics, evolution and the earth sciences that yes, I might well know more than you. I did, after all, study it, and not superficially, for over 15 years in accredited universities. With the degrees to prove it. UBC (Canada), SFU (Canada) and The University of Kentucky (Lexington, KY).
So I may have some abilities and knowledge beyond your own, as well as a proven open mind. I therefore do not purposely cling to old ideas in the face of proven alternates and newer knowledge. Just because I don't want to ripple the status-quo, with demonstrably fossilized and staid thinking happily engrained over decades. Why on Earth would anyone want to do that to their mind I wonder?
That makes me arrogant? Or just a convenient target for your errant dismissals?
BTW, given that there may be no god, or that he's apparently unwilling to ever show himself, I'll go with the ongoing spirit of wholesome scientific investigation. Which is currently, and will continue to, astound all who care to listen, as it dissembles the old myths one by one.
No I mean arrogant people who think they know more or are better than God. God is the only way and you can keep insulting me if it makes you feel better ,but I'd rather have Jesus anyday.
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