Evolution/Design and problems with the design argument (punishments, techniques, demon)

[ovcatto]

Originally Posted by baket

ovcatto: but u know your scientists themselves is so damn proud of what they "discover" that they claim it is not from God, since a god can't create complex and grand stuff like that. scientists proved their evidence and claim it a "phenomena", natural occurence, not God's. it can NEVER or even be possibly created by a supreme being.

what i am against is science's denial that it is God's creation.[/quote]

I don't have any scientist and from the looks of my daughter's course choices I doubt that I ever will.

Frankly, outside of folks like Richard Dawkins, I've never read a "scientist" proclaim that they have proven anything of the sort. As I have pointed out before, both cosmologist and evolutionary biologist represent all sorts of faiths and beliefs from devout Catholicism to atheism .

i also don't know if u know, but everytime i watch discovery channel, or any space explorations, that EXACTLY is what i realize, the very thing u say.

Well if you are watching the Discovery channel and the science that is conveyed enhances your belief in god, why are you so adamant about fighting any discussion of those discoveries?

[rifleman]

Originally Posted by baket

well then how can you say evolution is a fact if it only applies on one planet of the solar system? for it to be a fact, it has to be universally applicable. in this case, the universe. literally.

How inane. It's a fact here. Proven and observable. Yet you deny it, which is like denying that the sun rises in the east every morning. Of course it doesn't rise in the east on every planet in the universe. So... does that mean the sun doesn't exist here?

What a total lack of logic on your part. No-one said Evolution's a universal law, silly. Here on Earth, for DNA-based Evolution to occur, you must have DNA. Logical. Get it? Other life forms elsewhere may be based on other molecules. Gawd, your thinking is so very limited. How sad for you.

Originally Posted by dobeable

so lifes here not because of some intellegent designer but rather something that has no intellegence at all-a DNA molecule.

Yep. Pretty much. Proven and observable. You just don't want to. So sad for you too.

im just wondering what is the chance of the mutated gene positivly effecting the species.

Very low. But then, it doesn't need to be a high number. Ever study statistics? Or anything remotely logical or science-based?

would it need almost 100% chance for the theory to work

Absolutely, pathologically, unimaginably and demonstrably inaccurate. But why fight you on this. Even a crash course in logic and statistics wouldn't change your frozen-in-time mindset, so why bother. You can and will remain one of the great uneducated in this particular area of knowledge. Enjoy that status.

what i mean is that out of all the mutations that we know of how many actually benefited the genome-ive heard from yas 1 or 2 ,white skin/malaria bug -but what about the rest ,i dont know meself so im asking yous honestly

Such use of the language....impressive! Anyhow, simple and obvious answer: everything that allows you to be you, a warm-blooded homeo-thermic human versus being a cold-blooded and incredibly dumb crocodile, was and is a "positive" mutation when compared to an earlier species.

Obviously. Well, to some, anyhow.

Originally Posted by baket

ovcatto: but u know your scientists themselves is so damn proud of what they "discover" that they claim it is not from God, since a god can't create complex and grand stuff like that. scientists proved their evidence and claim it a "phenomena", natural occurence, not God's. it can NEVER or even be possibly created by a supreme being. i also don't know if u know, but everytime i watch discovery channel, or any space explorations, that EXACTLY is what i realize, the very thing u say.

what i am against is science's denial that it is God's creation.

Wrong. We hardly claim things to be true just so we can disclaim and deny God. How infantile!! It just happens that way for reasons I outline below.

Curious people were asked to believe in a totally implausible, in fact functionally impossible Genesis account. When that was honestly investigated scientifically, we found otherwise, such as that the Earth and universe were not formed instantly 6036 years ago. In fact, the universe has not yet completed forming up to this day. I guess God got tired of it all and wandered off.

And given the improbability that God supposedly "Insta-Poofed" all animals into existence instantly, why did he make so many mistakes? And why doesn't the bible mention dinosaurs? (answer: because the bible's authors had no idea they existed, so didn't bake them into the fantasy cake. Big omission.) BTW, don't quote Job; it doesn't say anything about dinosaurs.

Then along comes a very Christian Darwin, who didn't even know about DNA, but knew what he saw, and then he formulated a totally possible and utterly logical process that matched what he saw in nature. Always a good sign...

Later, we found exactly what his theory predicted and required: DNA. But meantime, the Godly side of the discussion was still stuck like set concrete in the bible-thumping, science-insulting mode, as usual. It's still like that today (witness your typical and hugely incorrect answers), despite what we now know about the age of this earth, it's geology, biochemistry, and DNA/RNA functionality. Which you, of course, simply hand-wave off as "bunk" and "bias".

Well, given the overwhelming evidence on our ever-more elegant and proven side, is it any wonder that modern science has abandoned the argument for the purely magical, inexplicable mumbo-jumbo faith-based but easily disproved version of Creation that Christianity mandates, as well as their abject fear and suppression of, knowledge?

Answer me that, baket old chum.

[baket]

the age of earth bible referenced... was made by who?! the bible scholars right? it is the human or in this case the religious scholars that say according to bible the earth is 6000 yrs old. you are attacking a presumption made by men. i can accept your argument if it LITERALLY said in genesis... 6000 YEARS AGO, God said let there be light...... does it said SPECIFICALLY In the bible that it was 6000 yrs ago that God made everything?!! now... the scientists say the earth is billions and billions of years old.... logically, i doubt it is possible, but they have scientific calculations as proof so whatever.... i dont concern myself with word for word of bible. i concern myself more on my peace of mind on my belief in God. i can accept that there will be errors on the bible, but u have to take into consideration that it has passed for generations and generations and it is impossible for it not to be altered or misinterpreted.

oh before i get attacked i also dont side with the earth is 6000 yrs old... if you are rational like u say you are you will accept the fact that we really dont know the age of the earth or universe for that matter. coz no one was there when it all began. all we have are calculations made by men accepted as fact by men. so you accept a fact, does not mean i have to accept it as a fact too.

can u answer me this rifle, was DNA created by scientists? or has it always been there? meaning it only took science to discover it when, 1990s? or earlier? there is a difference between something that was discovered and something that was created.

[numbskull]

Originally Posted by ovcatto

Why do theist always make the erroneous assumption that the goals and concerns of atheist are based upon materialism or some "materialist dimension".



Ah, yes the Cosmic Egg.

I have to say that it has more in common with scientific cosmology and evolution that Christianity.

Anyway, I high recommend Pharaoh Sanders, "The Creator Has A Master Plan" a great tune with Leon Thomas on vocals, Ron Carter on bass. Everyone religion needs a good spiritual.

I just wanted to make the comment: that I concur pertaining to ,Pharaoh Sanders," majestic tunes seeming to span the endless cosmos", as for "what,where,why,and how we exist"? Well, I'll just leave that up, to the better debaters. Peace Out.....

[Mahiahiono]

Originally Posted by Konraden

One of the problems one runs into in claiming design is being able to differentiate from design, non-design, and perceived design. Does this creator create every individual snowflake? Their structures are perfect. Yet a physical process exists to form this perfect crystal.

If this premise is accepted, why is human descent excepted?

In the world of criminal justice there is a think called an allibi. It is evidience that the accusation against the accused is false, because the facts that constitute the alibi make the commision of the crime by the accused impossible, for example, "he was accused of knifing the deceased, but at the time of the stabbing he was, accordiing to numerous eye witnesses, in his supervisor's office 30 miles away discussing the next step in the manufacturing of their new product"

Intelligent design would have you believe that an all-powerfull, all-loving creator created mankind in his image. A creator with infinite wisdom and power.

Unfortunately, life, including, human life, is so full of flaws and vulnerabilities and "mistakes" that the premis of it being the work product of a perfect creator falls on it's face. Review a book on the pathologies of the human body and you will see an ocean of imperfections at every level, sub-cellular, cellular, tissue, organ and system.

Are we to believe that this perfect, all-knowing creator had a really bad hangover the day he created life, and screwed it up horribly?

You see the facts don't fit the premise of Intelligent Design. More like Unintelligent, half-assed design.

Now you have the truth. Accept it and give up the mythology B.S, cause baby, there ain't no thing as heaven or hell, just lilfe and death and eternal nothingness - no matter what silliness you believe.

[Konraden]

Originally Posted by baket

the age of earth bible referenced... was made by who?! the bible scholars right? it is the human or in this case the religious scholars that say according to bible the earth is 6000 yrs old. you are attacking a presumption made by men. i can accept your argument if it LITERALLY said in genesis... 6000 YEARS AGO, God said let there be light...... does it said SPECIFICALLY In the bible that it was 6000 yrs ago that God made everything?!! now... the scientists say the earth is billions and billions of years old.... logically, i doubt it is possible, but they have scientific calculations as proof so whatever.... i dont concern myself with word for word of bible. i concern myself more on my peace of mind on my belief in God. i can accept that there will be errors on the bible, but u have to take into consideration that it has passed for generations and generations and it is impossible for it not to be altered or misinterpreted.

That's the first step.

oh before i get attacked i also dont side with the earth is 6000 yrs old... if you are rational like u say you are you will accept the fact that we really dont know the age of the earth

4.5 billion +- a few million years. We have this fascinating method of testing really old stuff cold radiometric dating. Uranium\Lead in particular. Uranium has a half-life of some 4.5 billion years. Of course, last time I checked the Earth's oldest rock was only about 3.6 billion years old, thanks to plate tectonics. However, the stupendous number of asteroids that have fallen into our planet reveal the age of our solar system, and it is entirely reasonable to say that everything formed around the same time as one another.

or universe for that matter.

This one is actually quite fascinating. Our observable universe is only about 14 billion lightyears across, but that is only what we can see. We're not entire sure if it goes on forever or not.

coz no one was there when it all began.

By this logic, you would have to set free every prisoner in the world that was tried on evidence where no witnesses were available to see the person commit the crime.

all we have are calculations made by men accepted as fact by men. so you accept a fact, does not mean i have to accept it as a fact too.

Of course not, just don't expect your baseless beliefs to be taught in schools, or have scientifically valid theories torn out of them.

can u answer me this rifle, was DNA created by scientists? or has it always been there?

It's been on Earth more or less as long as life has been.

meaning it only took science to discover it when, 1990s? or earlier? there is a difference between something that was discovered and something that was created.

DNA's discovery was much longer ago. The double-helix model we have now was in the 1950s, but the discovery was in the 1890's if memory serves correct.

[baket]

i am sure God is amused by this debate. especially the scientists/evolutionists who because of their logic and evidence think they won and is right on their assumptions on the age of earth. is it just me that realized it just yesterday? they are fighting on the age of the earth when nowhere in genesis does it say exactly when was the beginning. so it all boils down to human fighting human for truth/evidence that they themselves make. they are saying most are taking bible literally, well literally speaking, nowhere in the bible does it say the age of the earth. so the fight for earth's age is moot or what u call strawman.

i still dont believe dinosaurs existed though, even though they said job book mentioned leviathan or monsters. i know there are fossils, like the evolution of man, i also used to believe dinosaurs walked the earth. ive been to several dinosaur museums. i dont know for some reason, i have a funny feeling on dinosaur actually existing. i know i will be labeled the nasties but i dont get why you attack me for not believing the numerous fossils, but it just dont cut it for me for some reason. i dont know what.

[Rafius]

Originally Posted by baket

i still dont believe dinosaurs existed though, even though they said job book mentioned leviathan or monsters. i know there are fossils, like the evolution of man, i also used to believe dinosaurs walked the earth. ive been to several dinosaur museums. i dont know for some reason, i have a funny feeling on dinosaur actually existing.

He's winding us up........ isn't he?

[baket]

well what is wrong with me not believing in dinosaurs anymore. it is just like those who used to believe in God, something is just not quite right for the former believers. i am not saying i am right the same way those former christians can say they are right that God really doesnt exist. i anticipate u are gonna say the difference is the fossils. but whatever, i made up my mind on dinosaur science fiction. and spare yourself and me the fossils lecture, i dont care.

[Rafius]

So what do you make of the dinosaur fossils?