Italy no longer intubating those over 60 years old (drugs, twin, best)
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
Maybe they are trying to. There are none to be had. Companies have backorders for governments, hospitals.
One company was interviewed and said they had gotten a lot of "individual" requests and they are not honoring any of them.
I saw a news clip about wealthy people demanding from their doctors that they be able to buy those drugs that are currently showing promising results in treating the virus. They want to keep the meds at home just in case they get sick. Never mind they are asking their doctors to do something totally unethical and maybe even illegal. Some people are just selfish to no end.
If it came down to a younger person or a younger parent, let me go. My parents lived into their 90s in good shape so I probably would have many more years.
This is good example for living your life and not waiting for retirement to have a bucket list. DH and I are just double checking on all our important papers to be sure a surviving spouse or our adult kids will be prepared. We are also isolating ourselves completely, except for a grocery pickup next week at the curb.
My mother’s last words while receiving Last Rites were, “I had a wonderful life, a great family, and I had a lot of fun!”. The startled priest responded, “I am so glad!”.
I will hope to echo her words whenever my time comes.
Last edited by shamrock4; 03-23-2020 at 04:46 PM..
What are your true thoughts on this? I am a 68 year old senior in fairly good health, I personally feel I have a lot of life left in me. I was sad and hurt to read this, but I guess hard decisions have to be made at some point. I wonder if it will come to this in the US?
Every day in your life is just as important to you as someone younger than you. I am certainly younger than you, and rest assured most decent and reasonable people feel the same.
That said, this is what you get with socialized government and healthcare. Rationing is inevitable even under normal circumstances, and the weakest most vulnerable will be culled by Ezekiel Emanuel, a so called "bioethicist" (who was one of the architects of Obamacare), would end your life even if you are not sick.
Why, because you are no longer working and putting a drain on society, not contributing to it.
Yet this same kook would use medical resources to keep some young criminal alive, as he could potentially help the state with years of working life left.
[This of course ignores that this predator never worked a day in his life, vs. you who probably worked most of your life and served your country, state and local community]
But I digress.
As to intubating people, remember, before the days of auto respirators, people were intubated and manually bagged.
So if some men (not sheep) want to keep grandma/grandpa or mom/dad alive, they can just tell the MD to intubate them, and they along with their family will manually bag them, hopefully giving them enough time to recover.
If the MD wont, get a paramedic to intubate them, as they do it all the time.
The point is that you have alienable God given rights to live and protect yourself.
Never allow anyone (government or individual) to decide whether your life is worth saving or not compared with someone else.
That is your choice, not theirs to make!
There is so much misinformation about. There is all kind of bs flying about. So, the first thing is to ask the OP where did he/she got the information. A link to the source would be nice.
I am quite certain that the original premise is false (though triage in an overstressed situation is a definite). Here is the link to a very interesting analysis of 3200 deaths in Italy until March 20th - https://www.epicentro.iss.it/coronav..._marzo_eng.pdf
The link is easy to read and has very useful information. The most notable being the link to hypertension and Ace Inhibitors and ARBs that Dr. Fauci hinted in an interview couple of days back. Doesn't look like all 62 years are being left for the crows.
Finally, the persons trying to score cheap points against single payer health care should know that some of the best outcomes are in S. Korea (single payer), Germany (not single payer, but very highly regulated - and a health insurance is a precondition to stay in the country). These countries are also #1 and #2 in the ICU beds per 1000. The US is way down on the list... So much for the most expensive health care system on this earth - https://www.washingtonpost.com/world...512_story.html
Every day in your life is just as important to you as someone younger than you. I am certainly younger than you, and rest assured most decent and reasonable people feel the same.
That said, this is what you get with socialized government and healthcare. Rationing is inevitable even under normal circumstances, and the weakest most vulnerable will be culled by Ezekiel Emanuel, a so called "bioethicist" (who was one of the architects of Obamacare), would end your life even if you are not sick.
Why, because you are no longer working and putting a drain on society, not contributing to it.
Yet this same kook would use medical resources to keep some young criminal alive, as he could potentially help the state with years of working life left.
[This of course ignores that this predator never worked a day in his life, vs. you who probably worked most of your life and served your country, state and local community]
But I digress.
As to intubating people, remember, before the days of auto respirators, people were intubated and manually bagged.
So if some men (not sheep) want to keep grandma/grandpa or mom/dad alive, they can just tell the MD to intubate them, and they along with their family will manually bag them, hopefully giving them enough time to recover.
If the MD wont, get a paramedic to intubate them, as they do it all the time.
The point is that you have alienable God given rights to live and protect yourself.
Never allow anyone (government or individual) to decide whether your life is worth saving or not compared with someone else.
That is your choice, not theirs to make!
`
This has zero to do with 'socialized medicine" or who is paying the bill.
It has EVERYTHING to do with a lack of ventilators - which the US will be facing if they don't get their rear in gear OR prevent our citizens from getting it.
Do not kid yourself that this can only happen in other countries.
I'm kind of resigned to triage decisions like this if the hospitals near me (suburban NYC) get truly overwhelmed.
I'm sure at 48 they'd work on 15 or 20 or 30 year old people before me, all other things being equal.
Don't sell yourself short.
You are a whole 12 years off!!
I'm 56, hopefully will make it to 57 in the fall.
My OH is going to be 61 in 3 weeks.
Trust me they'll take YOU over ME.
I also have many many medical issues, and I draw SSDI. Even though I DO work PT ( up to the limit), I don't have any specific NEEDED job skills.
I'm not a rocket scientist for instance, I have no idea on how to make a lithium ion battery last longer, nor where to begin if I thought I could.
So you will probably be saved, I'll be passed over.
And to boot, I think I'm coming down with a spring cold. Tomorrow I guess I have to figure out how to "see" my primary care physician.
It's just body aches, and chest congestion with expectorant, which should all mean it's NOT the covid-19 Corona virus.
Maybe he'll get me tested as I have serious asthma, prone to bronchitis and pneumonia, even though I've had the vaccine. Those reasons also could get me passed over!
The article in the first post has a "source link" back to the Daily Express in the UK, which is considered a tabloid paper, with sort of "Elvis spotted in mall" level stories. The Daily Mail links article links back to an opinion column from ITV news, in which someone claims to have overheard a discussion between two Italian doctors in which they suggest that new rules might be coming which would require triage for ventilator priority.
Every other search for similar terms links back to an article quoting the Daily Express.
As for triage, that is the entire point of it; when your staff/supplies are limited, you have to decide on a treatment plan based on the resources you have, not on the basis of unlimited availability.
__________________
Moderator posts are in RED.
Moderator for: Oregon (and subforums), Auto Racing.
When you signed up for an account, you agreed to abide by the site's TOS and rules. You really should look through them.
City-Data Terms of Service: https://www.city-data.com/terms.html
City-Data FAQ: https://www.city-data.com/forum/faq/
"As Italy struggles to contain the rapidly spreading novel coronavirus, " a leading health agency in the Italyhas suggested intensive care units to treat young people in their wards before the elderly."
"The Society of Anesthesia, Analgesia, Resuscitation and Intensive Care, or SAARI, in Italy published guidance this week instructing healthcare providers to bypass the standard policy of "first come first served," and instead prioritize patients who have the best chance of survival. The agency urged ICUs to treat the epidemic with "catastrophe medicine" guidelines, which are only ever used in times of war or natural disaster."
"It may be necessary to place an age limit on admission to intensive care," read the guidelines from SAARI. "This is not a value judgment but a way to provide extremely scarce resources to those who have the highest likelihood of survival and could enjoy the largest number of life-years saved."
Last edited by matisse12; 03-23-2020 at 06:28 PM..
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
