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First, I'll have you note I put "concentration" IN QUOTES.
Some of this "argument" may simply be semantics.
My neighbor Ladies obit reads as follows:
"She was sent, along with her mother, father and brother, for 3 years to the Japanese American concentration camps in California and Idaho..."
The second definition of "concentration" (the first being"to focus on something, as in to concentrate); but the second definition is: "a large group of people or things".
Hitler's regime CONCENTRATED the Jews in, more appropriately named "death camps".
The US CONCENTRATED those of Japanese descendants in CONCENTRATION camps.
Auschwitz, Buchenwald, etc, WERE death camps.
And I agree with you, life in the Japanese American camps was not easy, but not was it for those who survived the Nazi death camps in Europe.
Semantic issues, if you wish to pursue it.
But please FIRST ask yourself: why was her obituary reading as above???
.
Understand that I am really trying to be nice here, as someone who lost much of her family. It wasn't right to say that the Japanese-American camps were "nearly as bad as Auschwitz" as in your original post. It was in your own post! That is not a matter of semantics.
My Dad's family was French Basque/Béarnaise and lived near the Spanish border in the Pyrenees. I recall being at a family reunion in the 50's where the family was talking about relatives who lived through the German occupation of the area. They said the Germans were paranoid and blamed all of the people in the area of smuggling Jews, they would randomly beat or kill people for no reason and they would take young women into custody to 'entertain' the soldiers. The soldiers eventually killed all the farm animals and destroyed most of their homes. They resorted to eating grass and furtively fishing when the Germans were sleeping. Two elderly people starved to death and one of the young women who was kidnapped was never seen again.
Unfortunately, every army (and not just the army, but the civilian sympathizers of the side that has a temporary or final control of the territory) does that kind of thing. American army is pretty much the only one that has cleaned up its conduct in the recent wars, but watch the old movie Two Women (with Sophia Loren) for some info about things that happened in Italy as the Allied (incl the US) Forces were winning the war.
Speaking of France in the WW2, yes, the French did widely help out their Jewish population by hiding them in return for farm work. That is how the parents of my late boyfriend survived most of the war, although they were found out and deported to Auschwitz eventually. His dad also worked for the Resistance, which the Germans never figured out since he impersonated a clueless farm schlemiel reasonably well, otherwise he would have been shot on the spot. My bf's mom was skinny and very dark Semitic-looking (my bf inherited her looks ), but that was not a type to which Germans paid attention sexually, so she was never bothered. After deportation, both his parents worked in the factories associated with Auschwitz, and obivously survived. If you were young, strong, and focused on survival techniques, it was possible. My bf's dad was convinced that eating grass (for vitamins and minerals!) saved him, to which my fb's mom would just roll her eyes. He would also fall deeply in thought when he saw a squirrel, and make some cryptic remarks about squirrels needing to be promoted into kosher food...
Just within the past year, I was able to connect with some first cousins, children of a couple of my aunts, who had also survived the Holocaust. They all escaped to Israel. One went to Israel as a very young woman, so she wasn't in the camps at all, as far as I know. My dad was the youngest of eight kids and my aunts were much older than him.
The info that hurts the most and hadn't previously known...my eldest aunt had been married and lived in France with her first husband and young son prior to occupation. She was the only survivor of the three.
According to her son from a second marriage in Israel, she never was able to recover at all from the loss.
Speaking of France in the WW2, yes, the French did widely help out their Jewish population by hiding them in return for farm work.
While there were certainly individual French men and women who provided aid to Jews, to suggest that the French “widely” helped their Jewish population is not something that most historians agree with. During WWII, estimates are that the 75,000 Jews were deported form France to concentration camps where most were killed. The French police and government officials had a very detailed census of the Jewish population, and the French police were instrumental in rounding up Jews to be deported. (You can read more about the French collaboration with the Nazi’s here: https://www.france24.com/en/20180919...nazis-revealed)
Jews from multiple countries including France, Germany, Hungary, Poland, were segregated, deported to concentration camps and many millions ultimately murdered. Mass murder on this scale was not possible without the collaboration of significant portions of the non-Jewish population of Europe. And if it was not direct collaboration with the Nazis, it was certainly a willingness to look the other way. There were absolutely heroes who saved Jewish lives, but it is sadly a myth that it was just a few bad apples that allowed this to happen, and that the typical French civilian was outraged by what occurred.
Last edited by WVNomad; 01-28-2022 at 03:24 PM..
Reason: Typo
Mgkeith - I respect your experiences which are mostly second and third hand. I expect you to respect mine which are similar but I lived with and met on a regular basis with the people. Please do not let history eat you. Out!
First, I'll have you note I put "concentration" IN QUOTES.
Some of this "argument" may simply be semantics.
My neighbor Ladies obit reads as follows:
"She was sent, along with her mother, father and brother, for 3 years to the Japanese American concentration camps in California and Idaho..."
The second definition of "concentration" (the first being"to focus on something, as in to concentrate); but the second definition is: "a large group of people or things".
Hitler's regime CONCENTRATED the Jews in, more appropriately named "death camps".
The US CONCENTRATED those of Japanese descendants in CONCENTRATION camps.
Auschwitz, Buchenwald, etc, WERE death camps.
And I agree with you, life in the Japanese American camps was not easy, but not was it for those who survived the Nazi death camps in Europe.
Semantic issues, if you wish to pursue it.
But please FIRST ask yourself: why was her obituary reading as above???
Usually, the family writes the obituary. Certainly not proof of anything.
You were the one that mentioned Auschwitz. I would have used another camp for an example of concentration camps.
I certainly know the difference between death and concentration camps. The US made sure to never use the word concentration in anything related to the internment camps.
My main point was the words concentration camps should never be used for anything but the camps during the Holocaust.
Mgkeith - I respect your experiences which are mostly second and third hand. I expect you to respect mine which are similar but I lived with and met on a regular basis with the people. Please do not let history eat you. Out!
I reviewed your posts. I do not quite understand what your experiences are, or what you are referring to above, sorry. Whatever your experiences are, you are certainly entitled to your feelings and opinions. That being said, we are all human, and should strive to treat one another in a kind, considerate manner. That's one of my goals here, too.
When asked about my parents' war experiences I feel an obligation to describe them as they were told to me, as they are no longer alive. Most of the survivors are gone now.
I don't enjoy describing what happened, and don't spend much time thinking about it. I won't stick my head in the sand, though, and refuse to discuss it. It's painful stuff, I understand...not everyone can do it. I can. My studies and career experiences assist me with this.
**Most importantly, we don't want history to repeat itself for any group of people. Too many people seem unaware of the horrors--or existance--of genocide. It keeps happening in various parts of the world, unfortunately. It's not over yet.**
So I try to keep it real, not hypothetical or presented as ancient history. It seems to be necessary.
While there were certainly individual French men and women who provided aid to Jews, to suggest that the French “widely” helped their Jewish population is not something that most historians agree with. During WWII, estimates are that the 75,000 Jews were deported form France to concentration camps where most were killed. The French police and government officials had a very detailed census of the Jewish population, and the French police were instrumental in rounding up Jews to be deported. (You can read more about the French collaboration with the Nazi’s here: https://www.france24.com/en/20180919...nazis-revealed)
Jews from multiple countries including France, Germany, Hungary, Poland, were segregated, deported to concentration camps and many millions ultimately murdered. Mass murder on this scale was not possible without the collaboration of significant portions of the non-Jewish population of Europe. And if it was not direct collaboration with the Nazis, it was certainly a willingness to look the other way. There were absolutely heroes who saved Jewish lives, but it is sadly a myth that it was just a few bad apples that allowed this to happen, and that the typical French civilian was outraged by what occurred.
Well, I related what I was told by a family of French Jewish survivors. There was the Vichy government, but there was also La Resistance. About 3/4 of French Jewish population (ie, about 200,000 people) survived the WW2, more than in most other European countries. My late boyfriend's parents even survived Auschwitz (possibly because they were there for only about a year or so), and his uncle (mom's brother) also survived while fighting in the Resistance, later moved to Israel.
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), but that was not a type to which Germans paid attention sexually, so she was never bothered. After deportation, both his parents worked in the factories associated with Auschwitz, and obivously survived. If you were young, strong, and focused on survival techniques, it was possible. My bf's dad was convinced that eating grass (for vitamins and minerals!) saved him, to which my fb's mom would just roll her eyes. He would also fall deeply in thought when he saw a squirrel, and make some cryptic remarks about squirrels needing to be promoted into kosher food...