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Old 12-08-2023, 04:51 PM
 
7,724 posts, read 3,778,838 times
Reputation: 14604

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I wanted to go back and review how we got here.

Post #4: You say Kiyosaki gives terrible advice.
Post #43: I agree with you
Post #86: RayHammer incorrectly asserts, unqualified, "Any amount over 0% allocated to bonds is way, way too much" regardless of any other factor, period.
Post #115: I tell RayHammer A zero-bond portfolio, just like its cousin a 100% equity portfolio, is rarely (if ever) on the Efficient Frontier. That is, I can construct an alternative portfolio with the same amount of risk that generates higher expected returns than a 100% equity portfolio, and I also can construct an alternative portfolio with the same expected returns of a 100% equity portfolio that has lower risk.
Post #116: WVNomad asks a detailed question about my post #115: "If you just use two asset classes, I would think a 100% equities position would be on one end of the efficient frontier, and 100% bonds on the other. Can you create a lower-volatility equivalent return portfolio with a mix of equities and bonds than with just 100% equities?”
Post #117: You appear to be attempting to answer WVNomad, but your reply is orthogonal.
Oh. Someone pointed out to me you might not understand my use of the word orthogonal in this context. Sorry. “Irrelevant” to the discussion - it doesn’t bear on the central question of 100% equities being - or not being - on the efficient frontier.
Post #142: talking to @WVNomad, in response to his specific question “Can you create a lower-volatility equivalent return portfolio with a mix of equities and bonds than with just 100% equities?” I give him an example satisfying the conditions: Yes, it is empirically possible to create a portfolio that has the same expected returns of a 100% equity portfolio but with lower variance (risk).

Post # 145: You reply to me with a bunch of irrelevant stuff regarding investor behaviour. Investor behavior is irrelevant to the question of portfolio construction to be on the efficient frontier. Investors can be irrational, perfectly rational, or somewhere in between, and it has no bearing whatsoever on the question “is a 100% equity portfolio on the efficient frontier.”

Post #150: I say as much: Investors can be irrational, perfectly rational, or somewhere in between, and it has no bearing on the question “is a 100% equity portfolio on the efficient frontier.”

Post #153: You erroneously say "the actual facts and how things have played out say 100% equities has beaten balanced portfolios over every typical accumulation period forever .”

Post #156: I show your assertion in #153 is flat out wrong. In 153 you say 100% equites has beaten a balanced portfolio over every typical accumulation period, and I show you how a levered 60/40 balanced portfolio indeed beats 100% equities.

Post #157: You appear to acquiesce, saying “who cares” but that somehow that my example of a levered 60/40 portfolio is cheating (my interpretation of your point) and shouldn’t be used for comparison purposes.

Post #158: I counter your assertion that rationality is a part of efficient frontiers. It isn’t, of course, because the mathematics doesn’t care about bout rationality.

Post #159: You erroneously asset investor behaviour is somehow factored in to the efficient frontier.

Post #160: I take apart your assertion there is no reason to have bonds in a portfolio, line by line.

Post #161: You erroneously assert I’m posting a bunch of nonsense with no bearing on the question of “Is a 100% Equity Portfolio on the Efficient Frontier.” (The irony is thick.)

Post #167: You erroneously asset, once again - but subtly changing your argument, "maximum growth in a 401k is going to be based on 100% equity funds available”. <== Notice your assertion is NOT the topic that @WVNomad asks me about in Post #116.

Post #169: You completely misinterpret the discussion.

It occurs to me that your assertion that Investor Behaviour has a bearing on the Efficient Frontier is because you are conflating two separate concepts in modern finance that both use the word “efficient”.
1) The first is the Efficient Frontier, where investor behavior & rationality are not part of the equation, as I’ve demonstrated.
2) The second is The Efficient Markets Hypothesis - but we are not talking about the EMH here at all.

The mathematics are incontrovertible.

***

Look, Mathjak, you're a good guy, and you've made a lot of money investing, and I tip my hat to you. I've never run across someone like you who never went to college, never took any math, never studied academic finance (which requires math) who nevertheless takes such a strong interest in investing. Good for you.

My interchange with WVNomad was on a specific item in academic finance about the Efficient Frontier. Don't get hung up on it.. Don't worry about it. Believe it (because it is true) or don't believe it (because you can't follow the logic) - it doesn't change what you personally will do.
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Old 12-08-2023, 05:00 PM
 
7,724 posts, read 3,778,838 times
Reputation: 14604
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wile E. Coyote View Post
Mathjak, I think Mogul made a good point about people who are holding any debt (including) home mortgages and who are simultaneously investing in deferred compensation through 401k's etc they are effectively using leverage.

I did not follow that entire conversation. So, I am not sure if he is saying this relates to people who actually took equity out of their home and put it to work in the market...
Wile,
You didn't address your point to me, but since it mentions me, I'll chime in.

Regarding your specific inquiry "So, I am not sure if he is saying this relates to people who actually took equity out of their home and put it to work in the market..., "

No, it is not specifically about nor limited to someone who takes out a Home Equity Loan or Home Equty Line Of Credit and then uses the proceeds to invest in the market. Your line of inquiry is temporal: first A then B (first borrow against your home, then invest the proceeds).

My point regarding leverage is not temporal. When you simultaneously (a) have a residential mortgage, and (b) have money invested in the stock market, you are deploying leverage. It might be because you took out a loan & invested. Or, more likely, you took out a mortgage instead of liquidating your investments to pay for a house. Or, it might be that each year you put some money into the market while you also put some money into paying off a mortgage.

Leverage is not a 4 letter word. It is not universally good or bad -- it just is.. Some people have a visceral reaction to the concept of leverage. Yet they are already employ leverage: they have a mortgage, or they have a car loan, and at the same time, they have investments.
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Old 12-08-2023, 05:29 PM
 
Location: Was Midvalley Oregon; Now Eastside Seattle area
13,059 posts, read 7,493,946 times
Reputation: 9787
BTW,
Topic is 401k and Kiyosaki.

One of these days, someone will develop an algorithm to determine optimal investments-retirement choices-taxes-age.

In the meantime be the, master of Your domain, financially.
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Old 12-08-2023, 05:36 PM
 
106,568 posts, read 108,713,667 times
Reputation: 80058
Quote:
Originally Posted by leastprime View Post
BTW,
Topic is 401k and Kiyosaki.

One of these days, someone will develop an algorithm to determine optimal investments-retirement choices-taxes-age.

In the meantime be the, master of Your domain, financially.
exactly …it is about 401ks and leveraged investments are not going to be part of this discussion for the most part .

it’s simply what’s the best strategy for the money coming out of my pay checks so i can have as much as i can to work with later
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Old 12-08-2023, 05:44 PM
 
Location: Was Midvalley Oregon; Now Eastside Seattle area
13,059 posts, read 7,493,946 times
Reputation: 9787
Really….
We leveraged Government Guaranteed Student loans for 401k annd living costs (2002-2006) and post years. All types of leverage possibilities. In fact financial leveraging is what I normally think about post working years.
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Old 12-08-2023, 09:39 PM
 
Location: PNW
7,477 posts, read 3,219,325 times
Reputation: 10633
Quote:
Originally Posted by moguldreamer View Post
Wile,
You didn't address your point to me, but since it mentions me, I'll chime in.

Regarding your specific inquiry "So, I am not sure if he is saying this relates to people who actually took equity out of their home and put it to work in the market..., "

No, it is not specifically about nor limited to someone who takes out a Home Equity Loan or Home Equty Line Of Credit and then uses the proceeds to invest in the market. Your line of inquiry is temporal: first A then B (first borrow against your home, then invest the proceeds).

My point regarding leverage is not temporal. When you simultaneously (a) have a residential mortgage, and (b) have money invested in the stock market, you are deploying leverage. It might be because you took out a loan & invested. Or, more likely, you took out a mortgage instead of liquidating your investments to pay for a house. Or, it might be that each year you put some money into the market while you also put some money into paying off a mortgage.

Leverage is not a 4 letter word. It is not universally good or bad -- it just is.. Some people have a visceral reaction to the concept of leverage. Yet they are already employ leverage: they have a mortgage, or they have a car loan, and at the same time, they have investments.

Thank you Mogul. I did address that in that same blurb.

Originally Posted by Wile E. Coyote View Post
Mathjak, I think Mogul made a good point about people who are holding any debt (including) home mortgages and who are simultaneously investing in deferred compensation through 401k's etc they are effectively using leverage.

I know a certain amount of debt is good for biz and that anyone with a mortgage is employing leverage. You are confusing me with MJ (I guess guilt by association -- LOL).

And here I thought you were MIA out in the dungeon at the chicken ranch or something -- LOL.

Last edited by Wile E. Coyote; 12-08-2023 at 10:20 PM..
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Old 12-09-2023, 07:35 AM
 
Location: Wooster, Ohio
4,139 posts, read 3,044,203 times
Reputation: 7274
Quote:
Originally Posted by JRR View Post
The quality of choices in 401k plans can really really differ from company to company. My niece's husband worked for a big name pharmaceutical company and his available choices were really miserable. On the other hand, my niece worked for a local law firm and her choices were excellent.
Fortunately, the Ohio Deferred Compensation plan for public employees offered the S&P 500 Index as one of the options. I went 100% on that. I was told at the time that it was not a popular option. I assume it is more popular now. They do not offer a Total Stock Market Index, but you could create your own by dividing your contributions between the S&P Index and the Small Cap Index.
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Old 12-09-2023, 08:07 AM
 
106,568 posts, read 108,713,667 times
Reputation: 80058
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wile E. Coyote View Post
Thank you Mogul. I did address that in that same blurb.

Originally Posted by Wile E. Coyote View Post
Mathjak, I think Mogul made a good point about people who are holding any debt (including) home mortgages and who are simultaneously investing in deferred compensation through 401k's etc they are effectively using leverage.

I know a certain amount of debt is good for biz and that anyone with a mortgage is employing leverage. You are confusing me with MJ (I guess guilt by association -- LOL).

And here I thought you were MIA out in the dungeon at the chicken ranch or something -- LOL.
keeping a mortgage and investing is nothing new . it is just the default if you have a mortgage and a portfolio too

whether someone should continue doing so in retirement is very debatable.

there are some very good reasons why it may not be a good idea in retirement unless one is a very aggressive investor.

but having a mortgage is not the idea behind a leveraged portfolio which has a specific strategy behind it .it is not just business as usual buying a fund and keeping a mortgage

Last edited by mathjak107; 12-09-2023 at 08:09 AM.. Reason: p
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Old 12-09-2023, 08:14 AM
 
7,724 posts, read 3,778,838 times
Reputation: 14604
Quote:
Originally Posted by mshultz View Post
Fortunately, the Ohio Deferred Compensation plan for public employees offered the S&P 500 Index as one of the options. I went 100% on that. I was told at the time that it was not a popular option. I assume it is more popular now. They do not offer a Total Stock Market Index, but you could create your own by dividing your contributions between the S&P Index and the Small Cap Index.
Regarding the bold, do you recall what was the popular option at that time?
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Old 12-09-2023, 08:39 AM
 
3,217 posts, read 2,425,895 times
Reputation: 6328
Quote:
Originally Posted by Suburban_Guy View Post
Whatever it takes for these financial 'gurus' to get publicity.

Sure, some of the things he says about 401K's may be true, but that depends on how diligent people are to avoid these things. And his false security of employee match concept makes absolutely no sense. I have no idea what he's talking about when he mentions that if you didn't have a 401K, your employer would still be expected to pay you the equivalent of the match.

Bottom line, despite its detractors, the 401K plan has been a godsend to so many employees like myself. It's designed to automatically help people invest by taking money out of your paycheck. That money taken out is something you don't spend, and it compounds in the account. Out of sight, out of mind, so simple.

https://finance.yahoo.com/news/rich-...130028275.html
He is wrong. I know no company that matches in 401k that pays you an equivalent match if you don’t take one. In fact, over the years many companies reduced the match amount. I will say the 401k I had back in the 80’s that in when I left in 89 went from roughly $13k to well over $300k in 2016 without doing anything. I eventually moved it all to my IRA when I temporarily borrowed half of it then the other half crashed during Covid and I transferred it after it came back up. My IRA has performed well too.


The point of a 401k was that you were given a tax break while earnings were high in anticipation of earnings being lower in retirement years. That may not be the case anymore but still, for most, if you are getting a company match it is worth doing. As you said, if you never see the money in your paycheck you can’t miss it. Most people have no clue how to invest and this is a way to provide for their retirement.

As for management fees, I hate to point out to him any investment firm will take fees plus try and churn your accounts for more fees and real estate comes with fees as well unless you want to be your own agent.
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