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I spent eight years teaching at a “majority minority” institution in an Atlanta area ghetto. Do I meet your criteria for being able to talk about this?
I don’t blame all poor people for being in poverty, just most of them.
Do you want to have a discussion about this, or do you just want to stick with your narrative that the poor are poor through no fault of their own?
In my 20s I spent 9 years working in various Atlanta ghetto areas as a welfare worker. The words of one welfare mother have stuck with me to this day--- "my kids were crying because they were hungry"---and this is why I contribute to my local food bank.
It sounds judgemental to say it but most of these people, many of which were third generation welfare, were incredibly ignorant and their children, being raised in this atmosphere, tended to continue along the same path as they had no one to model better behavior for them.
This is only my personal experience but I have to agree that hunger in this country comes from bad parenting, not lack of food. It's up to parents with a very limited income to buy nutritious food, and cook simple meals at home, skipping the junk food and skipping spending money on eating at fast food places.
I know I said this already but my mother became a single mom when my father died. I was five years old. She worked at a sweat shop (dress factory), had to pay rent and feed us on that one low paycheck. Somehow she did it without any gov assistance.
She never bought junk food, none. No chips, ice cream, soda. She would pack a simple lunch for my sister and I to take to school, like a Peanut butter and jelly sandwich or a fried egg sandwich. She would come home from work and make a simple but nutritious dinner. Something with pasta, chicken, a fresh veggie or rice mixed in.
I never ate fast food or McDonald's until I was 10 or 11 years old.
Bottom line is we ate, and ate food that did not hinder our growth or mental health. I seriously never remember going hungry when I was a little kid and we were poorer than most people today calling themselves low income and poor.
Last edited by marino760; 12-23-2023 at 06:23 AM..
This is only my personal experience but I have to agree that hunger in this country comes from bad parenting, not lack of food. It's up to parents with a very limited income to buy nutritious food, and cook simple meals at home, skipping the junk food and skipping spending money on eating at fast food places.
I know I said this already but my mother became a single mom when my father died. I was five years old. She worked at a sweat shop (dress factory), had to pay rent and feed us on that one low paycheck. Somehow she did it without any gov assistance.
She never bought junk food, none. No chips, ice cream, soda. She would pack a simple lunch for my sister and I to take to school, like a Peanut butter and jelly sandwich or a fried egg sandwich. She would come home from work and make a simple but nutritious dinner. Something with pasta, chicken, a fresh veggie or rice mixed in.
I never ate fast food or McDonald's until I was 10 or 11 years old.
Bottom line is we ate, and ate food that did not hinder our growth or mental health. I seriously never remember going hungry when I was a little kid and we were poorer than most people today calling themselves low income and poor.
As with you, my own father died when I was a kid, but I was a bit older than you when he passed - 12 - and as with you, my mom (whom I've come to understand is autistic) bought groceries & prepared food for the table. I remember conversations about money & food & the lack of both. I remember she succumbed to fast food twice to feed us: a local non-chain taco shop had a special one Friday night of 13 for a dollar. That fed mom, my brother, and me (mom had to place my younger mentally retarded sister into a state hospital rather than care for her at home as mom went to work). Another was a donut shop (Winchells - a chain) had a Sunday morning special of 13 donuts for a dollar.
Back then, mom was aware of the stigma of being on the public dole. Mom was too proud to try to get my brother any services - "I can feed him."
But nowadays, I see signs everywhere directing people to sign up for SNAP, and grocery stores & Costco and the like all have educational signs for SNAP.
Other public services, it seems to me, can be difficult to figure out who qualifies & how to apply, but SNAP -- food stamps -- seems exceptionally straight forward.
Just want to say that I love personal stories that illustrate why people think the way they do, and so I truly appreciate reading your two 'histories' above! I admire both of your moms and agree that is the way things used to be, and I think it was actually better that way as long as kids didn't starve. (And, surprisingly or not, I don't remember reading any stories of kids starving to death.) Also, back then, I would think that, in general, people had more friends, neighbors and family who were aware if a family was in dire straits and would step in, if necessary. Now it seems that in many places, people don't even know the names of their neighbors.
True story of my own although this doesn't involve food: My parents were "struggling", to put it mildly, and although we didn't really know our next door neighbors except they were a childless couple in their 30's, I think, they could see that that we were not rich, to say the least, and that my brother was in a wheelchair. Anyway, one Christmas, they brought over a bag of wrapped gifts -- one for each of us five kids, just (I think) to be sure that we had something for Christmas. (We always had about a half-dozen gifts each, from my parents and other relatives, but they didn't know that.) Anyway, the gifts were not elaborate -- I was about 14 and they gave me bottle of dime-store cologne -- but I have never forgotten their kindness. Anyway, this is just an example to show that back then, I think people were more inclined to look after each other and not rely on the government to do so.
For me it was pure luck. In 1993 I was a high school dropout who had lost my job in the tire and auto service business due to a friend of the owner's son getting out of drug rehab and needing a job. The only job I could get in our town was in the warehouse of a retail store for $200 a week.
One Sunday I was at the local grocery and picked up an Orlando Sunday newspaper just on a whim; something I had not done for several months. In it was an ad for a national financial services company looking for people to train for their securities license for a large call center they were opening in Orlando.
Despite my lack of education, I interviewed and got a position. Two weeks into my training the company advertised for four positions for another department they were going to also open in Orlando. My wife interviewed and got one of those positions.
Long story short, we both wound up getting multiple securities licenses and retired after 21 years with the company.
But it was dumb luck that we needed something from the grocery that day and luck again that I decided to pick up that newspaper.
Do YOU realize that there are seniors who can't work who lost their pensions or their jobs and need food stamps to survive?
We can agree you think very little of me as a human being and even less for my points of view, as they are very different from yours, and it just baffles you.
I realize there are seniors who, for the prior 50 years, worked & saved & invested & retire comfortably. Most all of them, as the current Senior age cohort is the most financially well off of any Senior age cohort ever, due almost entirely to the increase in GDP and standard of living of our country that are a result of our economic system (the one you decry). You've been shown the data.
I also realize there are far too many who voluntarily never worked or saved much at all, most of whom have one excuse or another, and it was their personal choice to live their life that way.
I also realize there are many who worked & earned & spent money in ways I personally find wasteful ($5000 per seat tickets to Taylor Swift Concerts comes to mind), arriving at their golden years with many experiences but few investment assets - but I don't get a vote in how they chose to spend their hard-earned money.
I also realize there are some who never were able to work at all because of substantial physical or mental disabilities. That is why my favorite charities provide services for the physically disabled and to the mentally disabled. Currently, I provide funding to the National Ability Center, Autism Speaks, and The National Center for Learning Disabilities, among others.
I suspect you will not believe me when I state that just yesterday I gave away over $1 Million to such charities. Go ahead & call me a liar if it makes you feel better. If you do believe me, I suspect you would then turn around and criticize me for assuming I will take a tax deduction for my contribution or find some other fault with me. My gift is in the form of highly appreciated stock in Apple and Intel where my basis is mere pennies - so I suspect you would find fault that I received stock options as compensation decades ago for extraordinary contributions that allowed me to accumulate that wealth in the first place. And then you'd probably fault me for using my gift in part to offset moving funds from an IRA to a Roth-IRA. And I suspect you'd state that pay-for-performance and accumulation of wealth ought to be illegal in the first place, even though my contributions to charity are funded by the results of meritocracy. Perhaps you would go so far as to say charities should not exist (because no one ought ever to accumulate wealth with which to donate to charities in the first place) and that what we consider charitable activities today ought instead just to be functions of the government.
You've shown economic discussions have no impact on your views.
Speaking of having no impact on your views, once again you bring up the canard that people have lost their pensions. It was only a few weeks ago when we discussed pensions. You asserted people lost pensions, and I responded that since the passage of The Employee Retirement Income Security Act of 1974 (ERISA) and the establishment of the Pension Benefit Guarantee Corporation (a quasi-public/private federally chartered institution) that no one has lost their pension. Not. One. Person. Prior to 1974, people did, but not since. https://www.city-data.com/forum/66118065-post101.html
You asserted a neighbor's sister lost her pension; I showed you, after a bit of sleuthing based on the information provided, that your neighbor's sister did not lose a pension. She never had a pension in the first place - she had a non-qualified deferred compensation plan. https://www.city-data.com/forum/66122689-post215.html.
Even though our discussion that no one loses their pension was only a few weeks ago, you appear to have forgotten, restating the imaginary-yet-still-erroneous canard that, in your words, "...seniors...who lost their pensions..."
The rest of your post consists of imaginary scenarios; I can respond to each with a counter imaginary where the protagonist, having planned for the worst, lives happily ever after. That is why arguing with imaginary hypothetical scenarios isn't compelling to anyone - yet you continue with the weak "whatabout" argument.
I would call your posts amusing, but I don't think you would understand why.
Quote:
Originally Posted by rodentraiser
Reaganomics in the 80s.
Speaking of your lack of economic understanding, you misunderstand how the economic policies of our government in the 1980s had the wonderful impact on your standard of living today. Perhaps you would prefer to return to the economic world of the rotary-telephone world of the 1980s prior to the invention of HIV medications, personal computers, chip-based credit cards, interstate banking, mRNA vaccines, the VCR, remote controls for TVs, audio CDs (let alone DVDs), streaming, computer-controlled fuel injected internal combustion engines, EVs, photovoltaic solar panels, or other modern marvels. After all, evil corporations powered by individual contributions are responsible for such things, and in your world, that is bad. Perhaps you wouldn't find fault with Pol Pot's goal of the elimination of meritocracy, the elimination of rewards for personal achievement, the elimination of technology, and a common one-size-fits-nobody, everyone-is-worse-off so long as nobody-gets-ahead economic order.
You've been shown there is no such thing as "trickle down economics." You've been shown that it was first mentioned in comedy by Will Rodgers in the 1930s. You've been shown that there are no courses at research universities teaching "trickle down economics." You've been shown "trickle down economics" is an invention of the progressive left - a straw man created for the sole purpose of having something to argue against -- and then you cite such progressive left straw-man inventions as proof it exists!
Yes, you really are special.
You've been shown that the invention capitalism and the modern corporation has been responsible for the uplifting of more human beings out of abject bone-crushing poverty than any force invented by mankind, yet you continue to assert "corporation" is a four-letter word. You've been shown that meritocracy allows individuals to become successful and, like me, turn around and make charitable contributions - yet you continue to assert that pay-for-performance personal achievement is something to be condemned rather than lauded.
Unfortunately employees in America have lost pension benefits or were forced to retire early or lose benefits entirely.
My father in law was forced to retire early after a lifetime with Sears in order to retain his benefits but luckily he was able to pick up a town job for ten years to get a little pension but more important health benefits.
My uncle was also part of the group of salaried employees at GM who lost some of his pension.
My mom was a notch baby which in itself I believe had a bit of a glitch with her allotment.
Things happen all the time and not everyone has the foresight to plan for the worst. Many financial advisors recommend that even those with defined pensions invest additionally in other paths.
As a former retired government employee I missed the CSRS defined pension by a few months and was put into FERS is which it is a three legged stool of a FERS annuity, SS and matching 401k.
We were given zero help or information as at that time as they were spending all their time trying to convert CSRS employees to FERS. Luckily many like myself learned as much as we could about our 401k’s. As hard it is too believe many didn’t realize they should have been contributing to their 401k’s until they attended retirement training a few years prior to retirement.
Merry Christmas to all here on the forum. I hope everyone will be surrounded by friends and family this Christmas and if you know someone alone reach out with a call or an invite. It is always amazing how the littlest act of kindness can makes someone’s day!
In my 20s I spent 9 years working in various Atlanta ghetto areas as a welfare worker. The words of one welfare mother have stuck with me to this day--- "my kids were crying because they were hungry"---and this is why I contribute to my local food bank.
It sounds judgemental to say it but most of these people, many of which were third generation welfare, were incredibly ignorant and their children, being raised in this atmosphere, tended to continue along the same path as they had no one to model better behavior for them.
Were they too ignorant to reap the benefits of taxpayer largesse, in the form of food stamps, section 8, and the rest of the litany of federal and state benefit programs? No (note the highlight above - generational welfare recipients know EXACTLY what benefit programs are available). If their children are hungry, it’s because they are choosing to not feed them. Perhaps they are trading their food stamp/SNAP benefits for drugs, cigarettes, and alcohol, or cash for a new iPhone or pair of Air Jordan’s. If their children are school aged and hungry, it’s because they aren’t sending their kids to school - otherwise those kids would be getting the free breakfast and lunch.
No. If kids are “crying because they’re hungry,” it’s 100% the fault of abusive parents.
i saw first hand how the guys i was friendly with from my project days did not nothing to get out of there .
i begged them to go to apex technical with me when i had to find a career .
i went for hvac but they offered training in many career paths "
but nope , they rather not have to study or spend time in school .
so today they are raising their own families in the projects and they don’t see this is the result of their own poor choices
I think that's an important point. "They don't see." A lot of people operate on the premise that life is something that just happens to them. It doesn't even cross their minds that they can do something different. I was once that way because my mother was raised that way and probably her parents and grandparents before them.
It never even OCCURRED to me to think about going to college, because that was something other people did, not us. My father had an engineering degree, but only because after losing his legs in WWII, he could no longer work as an electrician and he had the GI bill. However, he also had what we now know was probably severe, undiagnosed PTSD, and he really never spoke to his 7 kids about school or our future. After grade school, nobody asked if I did my homework or looked at my report card.
We did have a strong work ethic and were expected to get jobs as teenagers, and even before, doing babysitting, yardwork, paper routes, to buy anything we wanted above the basics our parents provided, and for that I am grateful.
Eventually, a year or so out of high school, realizing I hated working in retail and needed to learn to type, I asked my parents if I could go to secretarial school for a year and not pay my $20 a week board, which they required if we lived home, and they said yes. Those skills led to a job at a public agency where I stayed for the next 37 years, able to move up into management. I was lucky, and as someone said, I made some decisions that changed things. I also made some bad decisions, such as getting married, because I thought that was my core goal and purpose, not working. In the end, work helped me survive the bad marriage.
But I am saying it took a long time to see that life could be different from what I took for granted it would be. Once I was no longer married, I assumed I could never own a home of my own. In fact, it was the opposite. I was only able to buy a home after I got rid of the dead weight husband and paid off the debt he'd cost me.
I assumed that without a college degree, I'd be stuck at lower-level jobs, but I moved into management without them. The down side was that I always felt like an imposter, an intruder in the world of the normal people who knew what to do and how to act and who take for granted that some things in life are theirs by right to have.
Anyway, my kid got her PhD last year. She and three of her cousins have broken the generational mold of "other people go to college" (although my youngest sister, a mother at 18, got a degree at 46), and oddly enough, she and two of the others will never have children.
Some people never let themselves imagine that life can be different from what they know. I am grateful that life forced me to imagine it.
Last edited by Mightyqueen801; 12-23-2023 at 11:11 AM..
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