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Esmith, what are you? A bad teacher making an excuse for yourself? Or a wealthy person looking down on disadvantaged people? I hope not. The success of the student in education is highly dependent on the school and its teachers. If you put a group of students in a private school away from home and they are dormed in the school while half of them are rich and the other half are poor, all of them will excel regardless of parent background and education. Therefore, this proves that the education of the student is highly dependent on the school and the teachers.
So don't make an excuse for bad lazy teachers. When a bad lazy teacher teaches in the bad neighborhood school, the lazy and "I don't care" attitudes of the teachers and the school are the ones that are affecting the children there. And I have proven this. I taught in a college consisting of disadvantaged students with different ethnic backgrounds - mostly Black and Hispanic. Many of them had bad work habits, spoke using foul language and lived in a bad neighborhood with uneducated parents. As a professor, I told them beforehand that all students of mine will be successful in life and I would not take anything for less. It took some work to make them excited about life, school and having a good career. And guess what? I have discovered that if you gave these Black and Hispanic students a chance, motivated them, made them excited about school and life, believed in them, and at the same time taught them discipline, they do excel. I was shocked! I was shocked that the disadvantaged Black and Hispanic students were as good as any other person- White, Asian or any other ethnic background. I admit it that I used to prejudge the disadvantaged people as being losers. They are not. Therefore, I became a believer that the schools play a huge part in the educational success of the students.
In summary, it is the responsibility of the school to educate the children regardless of the background of the student.
Quote:
Originally Posted by esmith143
It's a basic principle. Dumb, poor uneducated parents -> dumb kids who either don't value education or are simply uncapable of studying -> low scores and a lot of crime. Wealthy and intelligent parents -> smart hard-working kids -> high scores. City schools are not rated lower because they have bad teachers or wrong programs. They are mostly rated lower because the ratio of bright kids to future vagrants and convicts is lower. When teaching is done at the level of a median kid, low-quality environment means that your bright kid isn't pushed hard enough. Worse, peer pressure can hold him from outperforming.
Some school districts do have slightly better quality of education because they have more money to throw around. ......A hispanic kid with janitor/lanscaper (possibly illiterate) parents, who does not hear a word of English till he goes to the kindergarten at the age of 6, will inevitably do worse on tests than a comparably smart white kid.
Whether people realize that or not, they will flee from low-ranked to high-ranked areas if they can afford it. That drives up house prices in good areas and depresses house prices in bad ones. It's the new segregation. Chula Vista built a lot of new houses with dedicated schools east of 805, and now there are good schools in CV ESD. Poor and dumb people are left behind in old CV and Imperial Beach. Schools in established areas have the tendency to decline over time. Some areas fare better, some fare worse. Sometimes areas decline below a certain level and then the process feeds on itself. It's an infinite circle.
Nationwide, only one out of every three children goes on to get a bachelor's degree. At the extreme, house price driven segregation will place all of these children in the same public schools, at the top 1/3 of housing. A few "accidental" smart kids born to uneducated poor parents will make it into charter schools like Preuss.
Also, there really isn't anything anyone can do about it. School districts all across the country tried to fix similar disparities in the 60's and 70's, when they were forcibly busing children from disadvantaged schools into good schools, or vice versa. (Disadvantaged children tended to be blacks, but that was mostly coincidental.) The result was that wealthy parents were pulling children out of the public school system altogether and placing them in private schools.
In summary, it is the responsibility of the school to educate the children regardless of the background of the student.
That might be true, but the school can't make the children do homework and study. They can only give them bad grades. Education requires studying, and that's up to the children and the parents.
That might be true, but the school can't make the children do homework and study. They can only give them bad grades. Education requires studying, and that's up to the children and the parents.
Yes, they can make children do homework and study by making sure the teachers check homework when they are turned in and not ignore those students who did not do homework. Those who did not do homework will require intervention because there may be legitimate reasons why homework was not completed and submitted. The student may need tutoring, etc. Most schools offer after school tutoring where students can stay after school to study and do their homework. The teachers just need to follow through with the student and show that they care. I have heard so many comments from my children how teachers do not care if they don't do homework because they do not check them. So who is teaching the students irresponsibility? I have to charge to the teacher's classroom and FORCE the teacher to check homework and FORCE the teacher to notify me if homework is not being done. Believe me, if the teachers follow through with the student and the student gets in trouble for not doing homework, the student will eventually do homework. It really does work. The teacher can achieve having 100% of his/her class do homework and I have seen this with the very good teachers. If there are legitimate reasons for not doing homework such as travel sports, my child would ask me to write a note to the teacher why homework was not submitted. The way to do it and I have to teach my child's lazy teacher this is that the teachers have to care about the homework being turned in and make it look like it is a crime not to turn in homework. One of my kids grew up fearing that he had to do homework or he got in trouble at school. He had good caring teachers. Then one year ago, he had a newly assigned teacher in 4th grade with a no-care attitude and everything QUICKLY went downhill from there. I found out from the grade report that he wasn't turning in all his homework for a couple of months. And what was my child's reasoning for not doing homework? The teacher did not care if homework was not done, yet it was affecting the grade. I literally had to tell the teacher that she needs to tell my child that she cares about the homework and it is required that homework be submitted. It will not work if the teacher is lazy and has a "no care" attitude.
And I have to admit that in colleges/universities, the educators have to follow a bell curve meaning that not all students can earn A's. The average grade for the undergraduate class needs to be a C while an average of B for the graduate class needs to be achieved. Therefore, it is normal for professors to ignore some failing students because they need that bell curve in grading or the professor will be reviewed and reprimanded.
I didn't say that they are not supposed to check on the progress of the children, etc... But there is no way the teacher can force the child to do the homework, or do it well if it is done. Think about it, for some families, they may not be concerned even if they know the children aren't doing the homework, that's just how it is. So even if the teacher reports this, the parents are also responsible, as they are really the only people who could "force" the children to do the homework.
Esmith, what are you? In summary, it is the responsibility of the school to educate the children regardless of the background of the student.
Ryana, what are you? Having caring and involved parents is the most important thing a child needs to succeed regardless of socio-economic status. If not a parent then at least an involved adult which could be a teacher. The schools educate but the family is responsible for the students behavior which includes willingness to learn and follow the rules. There is a reason why poor kids drop out at a much higher rate and as another has said it is the value given to education.
public school system is a failure. voucher sooner the better.
without discipline there is no learning.
too many gangbangers posing as students.
dr spock lied time out does not work.
the theory behind current school system is if you put some rotten apples in
with the good ones, the rotten ones will get better
do you have any idea how many teachers have been assaulted
i mean it wasn't reported?
Ryana, what are you? Having caring and involved parents is the most important thing a child needs to succeed regardless of socio-economic status. If not a parent then at least an involved adult which could be a teacher. The schools educate but the family is responsible for the students behavior which includes willingness to learn and follow the rules. There is a reason why poor kids drop out at a much higher rate and as another has said it is the value given to education.
Caring and involved parents do play a part in the success of the student, however this is a POOR excuse for bad and lazy teachers. The San Diego schools for that matter rely too much on this to cover up for their laziness. When students are placed in a private school, they do NOT look at the parents INVOLVEMENT with the kids in school for success. The private school is 100% responsible for the education of the student because that is what the school is getting paid for by the parents. In fact, the minute the school involves the parents in the child's education, this creates an imbalance among students because not all students have the same parents. Not all students will have the same type of parents that are going to be involved and THAT'S THE REALITY that the San Diego schools won't accept. Some parents are going to work all day and night to pay for the private school. Some parents will have work travel. Some students probably do NOT have parents. Some parents do not speak English and are uneducated. Only about 5% of the parents will truly be involved with the school. I grew up in a private school and I had ONE parent with 5 siblings. My mother NEVER got involved in school. None of my classmates' parents ever got involved in school except for attending the PTA and the shows. Yet, I KNEW THAT I HAD TO DO MY HOMEWORK EVERYDAY or I WAS DEAD MEAT with the teacher. This is because the teacher put THAT RESPONSIBILITY ON ME and not my mother. My mother never had to FORCE me to do homework because I could do my own homework. HOMEWORK is a reinforcement of what was learned at school so I could do them easily at home. BUT what does San Diego or California do with homework??????? Do you know how many times I have to chase my kids around the house to do their homework??? That's because they do NOT want to do homework. Homework is not a reinforcement of what was learned in SD schools. Homework is an extension to the LAZINESS of the school. They give the students new material that were never learned in school. They give TOOO much homework. I have had only one child who had great homework from kinder to third grade which he did on his own without me FORCING him to do homework. He knew he had to do homework and it was easy to do because he already learned the material in school. I took my kids to a private school for one year and there was a stark difference. That private school took 100% responsibility for the education of its students. The parents NEED NOT be involved. It was not even encouraged. My children could even finish their homework while driving home from school. They KNEW to do their homework and their homework was TRULY a reinforcement of what was learned at school so they were excited and could easily do homework and FELT THAT SUCCESS in learning. Instead, in the San Diego schools, they have home projects that are pretty impossible to be done by the student alone. They give homework and home projects that guarantee failure for the student because those need adult involvement. They give homework for which the material was never learned in school and they expect the parents to teach their kids the material. What if the parent was uneducated? That student does not even have a chance to be successful.
When the teachers teach, they should assume that ALL students have NO parents nor guardians that will help them with school. The minute you assume and require that the parents get involved in school, those students whose parents are too busy, uneducated or absent DON'T even have a chance. They are already PSYCHOLOGICALLY damaged by the school because the school has place a burden on them to wish that their parents are involved. The school should be a place for learning and success. When the students go to school, they should learn so that they become useful members of society.
THEREFORE, the conclusion is that the school should assume 100% responsibility for the education of its students because NOT all students are created equal in terms of parent involvement with the school and if the school assumes this, then the school would have created a LEVEL playing field for all students regardless of family and socio-economic background.
P.S. Yes, I had been assaulted by several students when I taught and these were adults. But I never gave up and encouraged them to trust that they have strengths that can make them successful. In fact, by the end of class, we were all getting along and celebrating. Some of them even cried at the end and could not believe that they had skills that they could use.
Let's make this easy. Look at the number of buses in front of the school in the morning. I wouldn't DREAM of sending my kid to the school down the street as it is overran with bussed in kids from S of the 8. IMO kids should be forced to go to the school in their neighborhood and not waste tax payer dollars busing them into schools across town. I'd be happy with my kids going to the school down the street but since my kids primary language is ENGLISH I don't think it would be in their best interest.
Caring and involved parents do play a part in the success of the student, however this is a POOR excuse for bad and lazy teachers. The San Diego schools for that matter rely too much on this to cover up for their laziness. When students are placed in a private school, they do NOT look at the parents INVOLVEMENT with the kids in school for success. The private school is 100% responsible for the education of the student because that is what the school is getting paid for by the parents. In fact, the minute the school involves the parents in the child's education, this creates an imbalance among students because not all students have the same parents. Not all students will have the same type of parents that are going to be involved and THAT'S THE REALITY that the San Diego schools won't accept. Some parents are going to work all day and night to pay for the private school. Some parents will have work travel. Some students probably do NOT have parents. Some parents do not speak English and are uneducated. Only about 5% of the parents will truly be involved with the school. I grew up in a private school and I had ONE parent with 5 siblings. My mother NEVER got involved in school. None of my classmates' parents ever got involved in school except for attending the PTA and the shows. Yet, I KNEW THAT I HAD TO DO MY HOMEWORK EVERYDAY or I WAS DEAD MEAT with the teacher. This is because the teacher put THAT RESPONSIBILITY ON ME and not my mother. My mother never had to FORCE me to do homework because I could do my own homework. HOMEWORK is a reinforcement of what was learned at school so I could do them easily at home. BUT what does San Diego or California do with homework??????? Do you know how many times I have to chase my kids around the house to do their homework??? That's because they do NOT want to do homework. Homework is not a reinforcement of what was learned in SD schools. Homework is an extension to the LAZINESS of the school. They give the students new material that were never learned in school. They give TOOO much homework. I have had only one child who had great homework from kinder to third grade which he did on his own without me FORCING him to do homework. He knew he had to do homework and it was easy to do because he already learned the material in school. I took my kids to a private school for one year and there was a stark difference. That private school took 100% responsibility for the education of its students. The parents NEED NOT be involved. It was not even encouraged. My children could even finish their homework while driving home from school. They KNEW to do their homework and their homework was TRULY a reinforcement of what was learned at school so they were excited and could easily do homework and FELT THAT SUCCESS in learning. Instead, in the San Diego schools, they have home projects that are pretty impossible to be done by the student alone. They give homework and home projects that guarantee failure for the student because those need adult involvement. They give homework for which the material was never learned in school and they expect the parents to teach their kids the material. What if the parent was uneducated? That student does not even have a chance to be successful.
When the teachers teach, they should assume that ALL students have NO parents nor guardians that will help them with school. The minute you assume and require that the parents get involved in school, those students whose parents are too busy, uneducated or absent DON'T even have a chance. They are already PSYCHOLOGICALLY damaged by the school because the school has place a burden on them to wish that their parents are involved. The school should be a place for learning and success. When the students go to school, they should learn so that they become useful members of society.
THEREFORE, the conclusion is that the school should assume 100% responsibility for the education of its students because NOT all students are created equal in terms of parent involvement with the school and if the school assumes this, then the school would have created a LEVEL playing field for all students regardless of family and socio-economic background.
P.S. Yes, I had been assaulted by several students when I taught and these were adults. But I never gave up and encouraged them to trust that they have strengths that can make them successful. In fact, by the end of class, we were all getting along and celebrating. Some of them even cried at the end and could not believe that they had skills that they could use.
Excellent post...Agree with you 100%. This is what lacking in schools, both public and private. They need to teach responsibility, not just dump some papers on parents shoulders. The wealthiest nation on the planet can't attract bright teachers to teaching kids. Most of the staff is there for their pay-checks.
I didn't say that they are not supposed to check on the progress of the children, etc... But there is no way the teacher can force the child to do the homework, or do it well if it is done. Think about it, for some families, they may not be concerned even if they know the children aren't doing the homework, that's just how it is. So even if the teacher reports this, the parents are also responsible, as they are really the only people who could "force" the children to do the homework.
See, you already said it. You, as a teacher already know that the parents of the disadvantaged students are pathetic losers who do not care about the child. And you are going to change them to be responsible adults? No. They will never be responsible adults. So, you as a teacher have the responsiblity to teach the child and make the child responsible for himself/herself.
Teacher: Class, contrary to popular belief, there is homework for this class and it is required that you submit it. Who here does not like homework?
Students: (Raise hands.)
Teacher: When you are at school, you are here to learn. You are not here to play games and talk about movies, etc. during class. You are here to listen to me your teacher so you learn. Why is it so important for you to learn in school today? Look around your neighborhood. What do you want to be when you grow up? Do you want to be a loser or a winner? Everyone wants to be a winner. Part of being a winner is knowing your responsibilities. Part of being a winner is knowing the rules and following them. If you do not follow the rules, there are consequences. There is homework in this class. This means that you have to do homework. Everyone in this class should be able to finish the homework easily. It is a reinforcement of what was learned in class. So that means you have to pay attention and learn in class. Who here thinks that they will not be able to do homework? Let's solve this now.
Students: (Raise hands.)
Teacher: When you go home, the first thing on your mind is to do your homework. No one at home will remind you to do your homework. It is not a guarantee that your parents will remind you to do your homework. You have to train yourselves that the first opportunity that you have at home is to finish your homework. Set a schedule or just do it because I will be checking your homework the next day. If you do not do your homework, then you will lose your recess and you will do your homework during recess. Who here wants to miss their recess? Nobody wants to miss their recess, right? Remember, school is not home where you can goof around. You are here to learn. At the end of the school day, you should have learned something. Doing your homework proves that you have learned something at school and you listened in class. If you are having problems with homework, you have to let me know. So, student 1, what is the first thing you should worry about when you get home?
Student 1: Doing homework.
Teacher: If your parents are taking you places like sports, drama class, etc. Tell your parents that you have to do homework and you need time to do homework. Here is an example homework. It should only take you 10 minutes to do this. Everybody, take 10 minutes to do this sample homework.
Teacher: Now this is your first real homework, it should only take you 10 minutes to do this first homework. At every opportunity that you can get, do this homework. If you have time during the lunch break, you can do it at that time, too to get it over with.
TEACHERS can teach their students to be responsible for themselves. The sooner, the better. The teacher also needs to follow through and be consistent. If they require homework, then they need to check it. Therefore, the end result will be that this student will end up more responsible than the loser parents and hopefully will make a positive difference in the community when he/she grows up because of you, the teacher who trained the child of the responsibilities of being a good student at school. Perhaps, the loser parents will see the value of education on their children when they see the child taking more responsibility than they are and they might actually get involved later. If the student is disruptive and behaving badly at school possibly because of a disorder or something else, then yes this and alternatives need to be discussed with the parents. I have seen this one before also where the student needs to go to a special school to handle these types of problems or the school requires the parents to put the child on medication.
Last edited by Ryana; 09-08-2008 at 02:37 PM..
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School is responsible
