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Old 03-12-2013, 03:05 PM
 
6,802 posts, read 6,716,541 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DocGoldstein View Post
My appeal is unquestionable. Most popular thread in this forum.
Doc, bad things happen when you start taking victory laps for the amount of views you have. I done told you that already...

 
Old 03-12-2013, 03:09 PM
 
Location: Oakland, CA
28,226 posts, read 36,883,248 times
Reputation: 28563
Quote:
Originally Posted by sonarrat View Post
That's what I was saying very early in the thread about natural barriers and housing prices. If there was enough housing on this side of the mountains, there would be less need for people to commute long distances. There isn't, so the result is that people are commuting from further and further out. We have an engineer who flies in from Phoenix for one day every Monday at the company's expense, and that isn't unusual...
I had a coworker once who lived in LA. He rented a hotel room during the week when he was working in the Bay Area. This worked out great for him, since he was cheating on his wife. Always had a room to take the "jump-off*" to.

[He was a liar on all counts.... after he was fired, I saw his linked in profile and he completely BSed the whole thing, changed around his work timing to be 4 years before the actual time. And extended the time from 3 months to 3 years.....]

**I think this is my new favorite slang term for mistress
 
Old 03-12-2013, 03:19 PM
 
Location: Oakland, CA
28,226 posts, read 36,883,248 times
Reputation: 28563
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ruth4Truth View Post

San Fran was an employment draw even without BART. BART allowed people to live farther away, and therefore more cheaply, than they would have otherwise, and spared them a long commute by car. Remember, the AC bus system was serving the near East Bay. Was the growth in downtown SF jobs due to BART, or to other factors? Or both and more?
I am not sure about this one. If you look at the Key System route, there were already lots of transit options to downtown SF from the inner east bay. AC transit had to replace the routes that were lost when that system was dismantled. (In fact that is how the Transbay routes got their names, from the Key System routes they replaces.)

Downtown SF was already a draw for east bay workers before BART. BART has impacted the further out places more than the inner places.

I think in someways BART encourages more driving on local roads, since it was designed as commuter rail and not a "subway" for multi-purpose transit usage.

I wonder how things would work if we still had the Key Route actually....
 
Old 03-12-2013, 03:24 PM
 
Location: Oakland, CA
28,226 posts, read 36,883,248 times
Reputation: 28563
Quote:
Originally Posted by DocGoldstein View Post
2nd BART tube is the only way to solve BART's capacity problems.
Not quite. BART has capacity problems in the stations themselves. Check out this proposal which will speed entry/exit times so BART can support more passengers within the existing infrastructure:
BART considers rebuilding 2 SF stations - SFGate

BART could also ease capacity issues by running shorter trains during the commute like Rockridge to Civic Center....
 
Old 03-12-2013, 03:27 PM
 
Location: State of Transition
102,211 posts, read 107,931,771 times
Reputation: 116159
Quote:
Originally Posted by sav858 View Post
I never said it was "easy" at all, it's never easy for any transit agency to get state and federal funds especially for big ticket items.

I don't recall BART having capacity problems in the 1990's. I'm also not sure they anticipated the ridership and growth they are currently experiencing.
Well, as I pointed out, opening a 2nd tube wouldn't be a matter only of one big-ticket item. It would require an increase in the operations budget to cover operating service to a 2nd tube.
 
Old 03-12-2013, 03:33 PM
 
Location: ABQ
3,771 posts, read 7,095,424 times
Reputation: 4893
Quote:
Originally Posted by DocGoldstein View Post
BART is simply too old as well. The trains look like they belong in the 60/70s.
Sure, because that's what era they were built. But, If you lived here, you might have a clue that they're spending $1b on new trains, and many current trains already received new seating.

BART plans to order test batch of new cars in May - SFGate

But why would we be surprised that you didn't know? You weren't aware of the new BART stations currently under construction. The only plausible way you ever spend any time in the Bay Area is if you're cooped up in a retirement home.
 
Old 03-12-2013, 03:40 PM
 
Location: State of Transition
102,211 posts, read 107,931,771 times
Reputation: 116159
Quote:
Originally Posted by DocGoldstein View Post
BART is simply too old as well. The trains look like they belong in the 60/70s.
Wash. DC has the same trains. I've never head anyone there saying they look antiquated.
 
Old 03-12-2013, 03:43 PM
 
Location: State of Transition
102,211 posts, read 107,931,771 times
Reputation: 116159
Quote:
Originally Posted by jade408 View Post
I am not sure about this one. If you look at the Key System route, there were already lots of transit options to downtown SF from the inner east bay. AC transit had to replace the routes that were lost when that system was dismantled. (In fact that is how the Transbay routes got their names, from the Key System routes they replaces.)

Downtown SF was already a draw for east bay workers before BART. BART has impacted the further out places more than the inner places.

I think in someways BART encourages more driving on local roads, since it was designed as commuter rail and not a "subway" for multi-purpose transit usage.

I wonder how things would work if we still had the Key Route actually....
The bolded part is exactly what I was saying earlier. BART has affected development more in the "outer" Bay Area.
I don't get your drift with the Key system, though. It was replaced by bus service, so I don't see that anything changed in that respect. The buses even follow the old Key routes. Do you mean to say that if there were still a train, it would be easier to add capacity? Is it easier to add capacity to a train system than a bus system? I'm not sure where you're going, here. Although I think it's a crime that they got rid of the Key train system, as far as people-moving capacity goes, I'm not sure buses are worse.
 
Old 03-12-2013, 04:36 PM
 
Location: Oakland, CA
28,226 posts, read 36,883,248 times
Reputation: 28563
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ruth4Truth View Post
The bolded part is exactly what I was saying earlier. BART has affected development more in the "outer" Bay Area.
I don't get your drift with the Key system, though. It was replaced by bus service, so I don't see that anything changed in that respect. The buses even follow the old Key routes. Do you mean to say that if there were still a train, it would be easier to add capacity? Is it easier to add capacity to a train system than a bus system? I'm not sure where you're going, here. Although I think it's a crime that they got rid of the Key train system, as far as people-moving capacity goes, I'm not sure buses are worse.
I think it is a perception thing. More types of people like to ride the "train" even if it is slower and less convenient. The transbay buses are fairly well used, but there isn't a ton of awareness because people are pre-conditioned to think "eewwww it is the bus...." (Even though it is faster door-to-door time than BART for many people.) I meet people all the time who have no idea there is a bus to SF 2 blocks from their house....

The Key routes were very good, and follow current development paterns pretty well too. I think if it still existed, more people would be conditioned to rely on transit, and less likely to use their cars. More like Boston, NYC....
 
Old 03-12-2013, 05:48 PM
 
Location: State of Transition
102,211 posts, read 107,931,771 times
Reputation: 116159
Quote:
Originally Posted by jade408 View Post
I think it is a perception thing. More types of people like to ride the "train" even if it is slower and less convenient. The transbay buses are fairly well used, but there isn't a ton of awareness because people are pre-conditioned to think "eewwww it is the bus...." (Even though it is faster door-to-door time than BART for many people.) I meet people all the time who have no idea there is a bus to SF 2 blocks from their house....

The Key routes were very good, and follow current development paterns pretty well too. I think if it still existed, more people would be conditioned to rely on transit, and less likely to use their cars. More like Boston, NYC....
I think you're probably right. There's definitely a "fun" factor involved with riding a train (though not so much in a crowded BART car), and possibly a coolness, not to mention a nostalgia factor, involved in riding a well-preserved Key system. And a train and track system does stand out more than a bus, which is just like any other bus, so non one knows they're bound for SF, rather than being local service.

One terminus of the Key system was the Claremont hotel. Something about that makes the idea of taking the train almost elegant.

On the other hand, the BART tube fared better in the earthquake than a train line on the East Bay bridge would have....
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