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...I am not arguing that Marin is NOT liberal. I am in fact arguing against the claims made by radio show gurus(such as, Michael Savage) and authors calling Marin County the most liberal county in America. (Is it really?)
Based on vote plurality, or donations..(maybe) based on extremely liberal views... (no).
Would Marin be so liberal if, as you say, they are preventing these projects for a reason such as crime?
You are essentially correct. Marin's political liberal reputation is widely overstated, especially among the voices of the ultra-conservatives. Generally, I still find Marin's political majority strongly placed in left-of-center -- i.e. a very typical Democratic stronghold -- but in my several decades of living here, I have also watched the political majority of this county move slowly more right, in step with the ever increasing cost of real estate. Thus, many of those left-leaning principles Marin was once famous for having, are now constrained by some very conservative-sounding principles as well (as you point, to oppose affordable housing because of one's fear of it attracting crime is very conservative perspective). I can think of a number of places -- in Massachusetts, New York, Vermont, Oregon, New Mexico, and Washington (both state and DC) -- that I am sure, could tie, or beat, Marin in a competition for the title of "most" liberal community, if there were some accurate way to reduce political tendencies to a simple numeric score we could compare and constrast.
I think the confusion many have when trying to understand Marin's "liberal" reputation, stem primarily from two misunderstandings. First, "liberal" has many different meanings in political circles. Conservatives, for example, often use "liberal" merely as a general prejorative term for anyone or anything that is not embraced by them. Secondly, "liberal" also has a very different meaning if we are discussing social, rather than political, issues. In this latter case, I think "socially liberal" simply means that a place or person is merely tolerant/supportive/permitting of alternative lifestyles and groups -- be they new age religions, odd political parties, ethnic people, or, as we have been talking, simply Americans of color.
In that light, I would describe Marin as perhaps one of the most "socially liberal" places I know of on Earth. Despite our occasional political conservative short comings, I would be quite surprised to find a person of color being rejected merely based upon their skin color or ethnic leaning. Marin has so many "unconventional" people living in it (which is something that hasn't changed over the decades), simply having different skin color, or "looking ethnic" would be of minor note. At any given time, for example, you could likely be within spitting distance of three ex-Jewish Lesbian born-again Wiccans all of whom practice Chinese Traditional medicine for a living. The stranger part of this scenario is that that one can likely tell all this about these women by merely looking at them. We have Buddhists monks who wander about in full traditional Eastern regalia. We have Orthodox Jewish street performers who play the ukalele and sing Beatles tunes. Someone who happens to be of black, brown, or green complexion would barely register on the spectrum of differences here (unless they also happen to be an ex-Jewish, lesbian born-again Wiccan too).
To people who are both politically and socially conservative, however, I can understand why Marin may be called the "most" liberal place around -- knowing, of course, that they intend this description in the worst possible light. They aren't particularly wrong, as long as one understands that such an individual sees all people from their own inflexible belief system, religious or otherwise, that conveniently pre-defines how people "should" behave. On the other hand, if you less programmed and tend to be more socially open-minded, you will likely find Marin's politics much closer to the middle of the road than the picture painted by conservative radio pundits.
I appreciate hearing the perspective from an established Marinite. I support your correlation between the rich and educated angst towards Section 8. On a similar note, I was reading a story, in The Marin Independant Journal, about the recent ICE raids on San Rafael's Canal District. My perception became that many white residents were just as outraged as the Hispanics themselves. So I am not arguing that Marin is NOT liberal. I am infact arguing against the claims made by radio show gurus(such as, Michael Savage) and authors calling Marin County the most liberal county in America. (Is it really?)
Based on vote plurality, or donations..(maybe) based on extremely liberal views... (no).
Would Marin be so liberal if, as you say, they are preventing these projects for a reason such as crime?
LOL of course marin is liberal to a shock jock racist like Michael Savage. He would love to have klan members as neighbors. Anything else is a "Lib".
Haha! I agree entirely. Growing up, I always admired Marin County for everything except its demographics. Unfortunately, despite being liberal, Marin county is basically very white and very rich. It's certainly true that so-called white liberals can be just as prejudiced as anyone else.
Can I just ask you one question: Why is it unfortunate that an area is "very white and very rich"? You seem quite racist, what is wrong with people living where they want to live? If other races were being kept out of Marin that would be one thing but that's not the case.
It just seems to me that enlightended, open-minded people such as yourself have a double standard. Would you EVER say that it is unfortunate that there are so many blacks in an area?
Can I just ask you one question: Why is it unfortunate that an area is "very white and very rich"? You seem quite racist, what is wrong with people living where they want to live? If other races were being kept out of Marin that would be one thing but that's not the case.
It just seems to me that enlightended, open-minded people such as yourself have a double standard. Would you EVER say that it is unfortunate that there are so many blacks in an area?
Yes, that's a good point! As somebody who grew up in a "White & wealthy" town (on the Peninsula), I've discovered one thing... there are as many - if not MORE - snobs who don't have money. That self-righteous, "I'm better than you for not being rich" attitude is just as bad, and really got on my nerves. I would actually lie sometimes about which town we lived in, just to avoid the eye-rolls and OH REAAAAALLLY responses.
And as you said, there would only be a problem if non-Whites were being forced out, or not allowed to live in Marin... we can't change the demographics of a town, nor can we explain how it became that way. Is it unfortunate & weird that Daly City's mostly Filipino, Redwood City is Latino, Richmond is Black, and so on? I certainly don't think so!
Yes that irritates me very much. Its a nationwide problem, recently I've seen an article (maybe the WSJ) that decried how Atlanta is becoming more white!
On the other hand people were upset that New Orleans was becoming less of a "chocolate city". There is such a double standard, I can't remember just when it became unfashionable to be white. Maybe intensivebear could explain him/herself.
Why is it unfortunate that an area is "very white and very rich"?
Yes, your are right. I think all-white communities are a great sign that we are on the right track toward racial harmony, don't you? Beside, isn't it just a statistical anomoly that very rich communities are almost always heavily dominated by white people? That's going to naturally change if we just going the way we are going.
Quote:
Originally Posted by gizmo980
That self-righteous, "I'm better than you for not being rich" attitude is just as bad, and really got on my nerves.
That pisses me off too. Poor people can be just as snobbish. I mean what the difference between what you have gone through and what James Byrd went through when those white snobs in Texas roped him and dragged him naked behind a pick up until he died and his body became dismembered?
Quote:
Originally Posted by decafdave
What is wrong with people living where they want to live?
Quote:
Originally Posted by gizmo980
Is it unfortunate & weird that Daly City's mostly Filipino, Redwood City is Latino, Richmond is Black, and so on?
Yeah, what is that? I will tell you what's really weird -- when those blacks, Filipinos, and Lantin folks live together in their poor, crime infested neighborhoods by choice. I mean, why don't they just move to a nicer place?
Quote:
Originally Posted by decafdave
Yes that irritates me very much. Its a nationwide problem, recently I've seen an article (maybe the WSJ) that decried how Atlanta is becoming more white! On the other hand people were upset that New Orleans was becoming less of a "chocolate city".
Yes, it is sad that Atlanta is becoming more white, while on the other hand, New Orleans is becoming more white. That really shows the hypocracy of these people!
Quote:
Originally Posted by decafdave
There is such a double standard, I can't remember just when it became unfashionable to be white.
I agree again! I mean open any magazine, or watch some TV commercials, or listen to the way people talk, or consider for a second what human features define beauty or intelligence in America, and which define ugly and stupid....being white is just SO unfashionable these days!
Yes, your are right. I think all-white communities are a great sign that we are on the right track toward racial harmony, don't you? Beside, isn't it just a statistical anomoly that very rich communities are almost always heavily dominated by white people? That's going to naturally change if we just going the way we are going.
That pisses me off too. Poor people can be just as snobbish. I mean what the difference between what you have gone through and what James Byrd went through when those white snobs in Texas roped him and dragged him naked behind a pick up until he died and his body became dismembered?
Yeah, what is that? I will tell you what's really weird -- when those blacks, Filipinos, and Lantin folks live together in their poor, crime infested neighborhoods by choice. I mean, why don't they just move to a nicer place?
Yes, it is sad that Atlanta is becoming more white, while on the other hand, New Orleans is becoming more white. That really shows the hypocracy of these people!
I agree again! I mean open any magazine, or watch some TV commercials, or listen to the way people talk, or consider for a second what human features define beauty or intelligence in America, and which define ugly and stupid....being white is just SO unfashionable these days!
Yes that irritates me very much. Its a nationwide problem, recently I've seen an article (maybe the WSJ) that decried how Atlanta is becoming more white!
On the other hand people were upset that New Orleans was becoming less of a "chocolate city". There is such a double standard, I can't remember just when it became unfashionable to be white. Maybe intensivebear could explain him/herself.
Yeah and "Those" blacks sure did complain when the Whites Fled to the suburbs taking the jobs with them, leaving the city to deteriorate. Now they want to cash in and move back into the city and kick out blacks? THAT is why people are complaining.
... we can't change the demographics of a town, nor can we explain how it became that way.
Perhaps you can't explain how it (meaning a particular town) ended up with its current demographic profile, but that's only because you obviously aren't aware of the many scholarly articles and books that have been written about various cities and towns across the US that show how they ended up being the way the currently are. But that would be require doing some serious research and reading rather than just spouting off one's uninformed opinion.
Yeah and "Those" blacks sure did complain when the Whites Fled to the suburbs taking the jobs with them, leaving the city to deteriorate. Now they want to cash in and move back into the city and kick out blacks? THAT is why people are complaining.
I agree with City Boy. Anyone is familiar with (or who cares to learn) about the history of housing in the US, particularly in cities, realizes that this has occured and continues to occur in neighborhoods where Black people reside(d) that once whites decide were/are attractive, whites try to reclaim and Blacks are kicked to whatever neighborhood is available. Some examples the South End in Boston was once all Black and in the early 70s when whites decided it was a good place to live used every means available often in collusion with the government and financial establishments to take it back. Now the South End is a very expensive area that is out of reach of most Blacks. The same thing happened in Georgetown (aka as Foggy Bottom) in DC that early in the 20th century was largely inhabited by Black people. Now it is a very expensive and exclusive part of DC. It happened in Society Hill in Philadelphia in the 50's. Society Hill is close to downtown and it was once home to many Black people. As a matter of fact, the first AME (African American Episcopal) Church in the US was started in Society Hill is still located there. When whites took over Society Hill, Black people moved to West Philadelphia. And when the University of Pennsylvania decided that it wanted to expand its reach further into West Philadelphia, once again Blacks were displaced to other neighborhood. And, it's going on in Harlem, NY, Chicago, and San Franciso right now that whites have decided that they want to return to the city in areas where low income housing and public housing exist and is being demolished with Black people being dislocated in inner ring suburbs or far flung suburbs. And sometimes it happens in rural areas as well. Pawley's Island, SC is a good example where Blacks lived in rural communities that were close to the water and white have decided would make wonderful vacation homes.
Nothing new here. The process is called gentrification when it takes place in cities and recreationalization when it takes place in vacation areas.
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Intensivecarebear
