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Apartments are what Mr. Vengroff proposed, not mobile homes.
Government uses taxes, fees, laws, restrictions, regulations, ect. as tools to control human behavior within their jurisdictions.
By applying these tools (or not), Governments don't have to openly state (by the written or verbal word) what they want, or don't want. Instead, they just use the tools, or don't use the tools.
Mr. Vengroff was either misled, or failed to get the "message" Sarasota County was sending via their tools. Or, the County simply changed its mind on his plans. Maybe new County Commissioners were elected after he began the process who saw his plans differently than their predecessors.
Thanks for your view Easy. The HOA Boards in the communities you mention may need to revise their Covenants and By-Laws to prohibit Single-family homes from becoming muti-family. Most newer HOA controlled communities have language protecting homeowners against these practices, but the older neighborhoods not so much so unless the Board has updated the HOA docs.
I guess voters in Sarasota County vote for County Commissioners that will prohibit upscale apartments and other mid-scale multi-family/cluster housing. If I'm correct, then I don't see any issue with it....do you? It's not County Governments' role to go against its constituency and do what they see is best rather than satisfy the wants and needs of those who voted for them? Is it?
What do you think about Government social engineering by mandating developers place 15% "attainable" dwellings inside high priced developments?
Not a question of a city or governing authority of social engineering, it seems a matter of "social and economic sense". Sarasota (the City) has long tried to emulate the "status" of Naples...a sort of weird competition has existed (well, actually Naples doesn't care much about SRQ, but SRQ tends to be envious) for the last 25 years, and especially in the last 15 years, specifically in housing and gentrification.
Some cities and counties think great things about themselves- for whatever reason, but the Sarasota milieu seems fraught with egoism viz "development". Some equate upscale development with "upscale character", which of course is foolish. It is however fuel economic and social bifurcation, which is really their goal. It's almost modeled "classism" of the worst sort.
The horse however is out of the barn in the case of "Sarasota". That is evidenced by examining the "built city" itself. Examples are pervasive, e.g. fancy inlaid "traffic circles" (poorly conceived and constructed however), installation of tree lined medians (see S Orange, Fruitville, Old Bradenton Road even, et al), monstrous zero lot clearance condos with inner parking decks), fancy façade firehouses, fleets of extremely expensive brand new unmarked SUV PURSUIT VEHICLES (like it's San Diego or LA, including the Fire Department Supervisory Vehicles, County Road and Code vehicles, etc etc)
Contrast this to the older, purposeful fleets of Manatee County, and the City of Bradenton. Contrast this to Manatee County actually spending money on practical infrastructure over the past 20 years or so, e.g. Fort Hamer Project, Lakewood Ranch Road Project, SR 64 expansion, SR70 expansion, and the new 44th Ave east west corridor linking areas of even east of LWR-R all the way west to Cortez.
Examine how may YEARS it took for SRQ to authorize and complete Cattlemen Road as a N/S corridor.
Examine how SRQ continues to DRAG its feet in implementing and finally building out (3-4 lanes) the N/S/ Honore from University down completely south through the Meadows which was already authorized in the LATE 1970s but lobbied against by the residents of the Meadows who already KNEW and accepted this reality in their closing documents.
I could go on, and on.......
The wind-up is that just look how SRQ treats one of its OWN cities in the county - Northport, which is in fact one of the LARGEST CITIES (land) in the nation. SRQ treats Northport like a "red-haired stepchild" and it's shamefull.
Look, let me give a real example: the local SRQ commissioners and other leaders were OUTRAGED when the United States Census Bureau CHANGED the designation TO "North Port–Sarasota–Bradenton MSA" !!
In 1993 the MSA (metro Stat area) was officially "Sarasota-Bradenton"
In 2007 the MSA was re-named as "-Bradenton-Sarasota-Venice"
In 2009 the MSA was renamced by the bureau as "Northport-Bradenton-Sarasota" with Northport designated as an official "principal city"
In 2013 the MSA was then renamed what it IS now as "Northport-Sarasota-Bradenton"
This nomenclature pizzed off the "powers to be" within Sarasota, although it was done correctly and performed with the correct metrics !
The egos were so bruised, a huge column was written about it by you lousy newspaper The Sarasota Herald Tribune !
The battle was epic and still continues today, and the egos are still choking on the label.
As I said, I could go on and on.
BTW some in Sarasota have proposed changing the name of the local airport from Sarasota-Bradenton International Airport, to simply "Sarasota International Airport". That proposal should tell you all you need to know.
Easy,
I dont know the history here. Have any of the Sarasota County Commissioners be re-elected? Are they able to run for multiple terms? Do you think the things they do are condemned by the voters, or are the voters supporting these actions?
You're post goes back to action nearly 50 years ago to the 1970's. Sarasota is seen as a very desireabe place to live and retire to as evidenced by many articles. The growth here is amazing. People are flocking here in droves.
Do you think most people support their actions, and keep voting for them, or do they disagree and cant wait to vote them all out of office?
Do you see yourself as part of a minority, or majority? Is the local Government reflective of its constituency, or not?
Do you see the 15% attainable" rule for affordable housing as a step in the right direction?
The matter is a result of appealing to people's "sense of themselves" through the promotion of an "image" of the city. People with a few resources enjoy being "set apart" and having their egos stroked. This is what has happened over the decades within the SRQ MSA, and specifically The City of Sarasota, not just Sarasota County proper.
There is a new crop of "inductees" seeking to be a member of the "club" every darn year with the advent of more and more baby boomers having retired earlier and earlier. The officials here know how to keep the pipeline full of "suspects" coming from (now) upstate NY, crappy NJ, NYC, LI (after super storm), not to mention MI, OH and even relos from now stupid expensive CA. They will easily drink the kool aid and continue to artificially INFLATE property prices and of course egos.
It's worked here for many decades...moreso in SRQ than in Manatee County. Manatee County for the most part hasn't fallen for the ego-inflated-exclusivity drama-appeal, but Manatee is quickly getting infected as well, thanks to the over-priced building boom of Lakewood Ranch (commercial/entertainment/shopping/residential).
Example: Heretofore, no one in their right mind would consider buying a 500k to 2mm "house" way east of the Interstate. Marketing is a wonderful thing. Selling sizzle is better.
Egos were so big here a while ago, there was a concerted effort to merchandise and market BS houses within Manatee County proper, with a SARASOTA MAILING address. The commission and realtors lobbied the USPS to designate some of the areas actually within Manatee County, as actually having a mailing address (legally) within SARASOTA COUNTY.
That should tell you about what kind of people esp the old guard you're dealing with. This is a FACT.
The government is essentially now (and has been) an oligarchy. It's not now an "every man's town", that, effectively ceased in the late 1980s or so. Manatee County has been also a sort of "good ole boy" county (esp the City of Bradenton), however I would suggest they were/are far more approachable, responsive, yet compassionate/rational "good ole boys", and certainly not "anti growth" and certainly NOT elistist (albeit encompassing elistist Longboat key, anna Maria, LWR, University Park.
Never fear, the plot thickens...every year, every month.
In short, they have little to no interest in 15% attainable housing - it doesn't fit their narrative, or social construct.
Manatee County is far more receptive because most come from an entirely different socio-cultural history and perspective.
However, keep in mind the yearly supply of fools purchasing the completely overpriced newer housing in Manatee County provides little tangible reason to believe that Manatee shall be any different that Sarasota. Money and profits can change values.
Can anyone tell me how this "problem" is manifesting itself? Every restaurant I go to has plenty of staff, there are nurses in the Doctor's offices I go to, every retail establishment seems to have plenty of help, even car washes (which is pretty hard work outside in the weather here) are fully staffed. I'm not seeing any labor shortage at all.
Grocery stores fully staffed, Starbucks, UPS Store, Banks, retail stores in the malls all fully staffed. None of these folks are destitute and living on the streets.
If its a bad labor market where entry level participants are living in their cars, or on the streets, I'm not seeing it.
All these wonderful people who we all value so much seem to be fine to me. In fact, they seem quite content.
Seems to me that this developer tried to provide low cost housing, and the city, or county, wouldn't give them a deal on the impact fees, so they took their marbles and went home.
Looks to me like the city/county agrees with me that there's not really a problem regarding affordable housing around here.
Can anyone who reads this website honestly tell me they have been unable to attain any goods or services they sought out due to the lack of affordable housing? I've been here since June 30th, and I have not had any issues at all.
I think you are right in the sense that there are service jobs and there are people working them---but that is not to say they are rolling in the dough or not having trouble finding a "reasonable" rent or house to buy...
Although I personally don't know anyone doing that I will say there was discussion on my neighborhood's NextDoor site about this same topic--
The young woman who posted initially apparently is very upset that she (as someone w/o a college education or any job skills except for service-level type work) is not being accommodated by a "greedy society" so that she can find "reasonable rent"....because she grew up here and wants to stay here but life was cheaper back then...there has been no wage growth (welcome to the world of offshoring,sans unions)...
She also does not appear to understand how her local economy as a resort/tourist destination is structured
My suggestion was that she needed to upgrade her education/skills, look for opportunity where she could get free rent for work (like overnight babysitter for someone who had night hours)---
She didn't respond to that
I overheard waitress at restaurant/bar on Venice Main a year or more ago complaining because the owner was closing the place down to do another remodel and she was going to have to look for other work-and she already had two other bars (3 jobs total) she was working at----because she had to have several since none would give her enough hours to live on...which is the nature of the food industry for the most part and even other jobs like working at WalMart where the company rarely wants to hire someone for full time work which requires benefits...
Younger people obviously are still living at home and seniors are likely supplementing SS and perhaps a private pension and savings w/part time work....
But many of the people you see working behind the counter, as waitstaff, at the movies, retail at any store except maybe Costco---
They are all likely part-time and working more than one job if that is how they cover their expenses...
Some seniors maybe work enough to fill in and not get their SS taxed--
Just because there are people working those jobs, don't assume they pay a living wage in and of themselves
And yes to the other posters w/more local, historical insight
There is no incentive to create/support any type of subsidized housing for lower-income residents from government that control zoning/permitting...
They want to INCREASE their tax base not use or remit taxpayer money to support subsidized housing....too downscale... Likely to draw voter resistance...
So unless you can change your local government and its policies via the election process, you won't see change...
beach43ofus's statement that workers "seem to be fine to me. In fact, they seem quite content." certainly doesn't mean they have suitable housing. Ideally, most people you meet will seem fine and pleasant, but that doesn't mean they don't have issues and problems.
Where do you think all the hourly wage workers are living? "None of these folks are destitute and living on the streets" may be accurate, but they probably don't have their own home or apartment. They are living with parents, or living very far from their jobs where housing is more affordable, or they are forced to live with roommates when they may rather not, or living in cramped quarters, etc. Getting by? Sure. But it's proven that there is a serious lack of affordable housing in the Sarasota area.
OK--didn't think this would be so long when I first started--
My daughter who teaches (and we all know how low their pay is) has lived in this area for over 12 yrs--
In the first 1-2 yrs she was teaching, one of the younger teachers at her school who had come from out of state not long before and had SAH wife and one or two very young kids went back to his home state because he said on his salary he couldn't afford health insurance for his family (because the district's health ins for a teacher is affordable for 1 but much higher for a family's coverage) AND paying rent---and they couldn't find a reasonable place to live...
Now this was during the height of the RE run up before the crash
But I think most people would agree that home prices have recovered and prices are as strong or stronger than they were before 08 and that rents probably never were exceptionally low because of the housing weakness---
Because landlords were tied to their cost factors and renters generally pay a premium over a mortgage holder...
This is a resort/retirement area--ANY area like that---Vail for example--totally inland but very much in similar or worst circumstances--
Resort/retirement areas have working people with average or below salaries who see their rents/housing costs pushed totally outside their capacity to compete with millionaires...
why do you think many resort companies using lot of service workers hire H2B visa people, house them in dorms, and send them home at end of season???
We vacationed at Grand Bay outside Mobile AL in early 90s and there were dorms on property for the young (college age mostly) service staff...
Have a good friend whose youngest sister (about 63 and still working) lives with her retired husband (in his 80s) in a permanent double-wide on lot in Montauk on Long Island...
they bought their place decades ago and now the value has gone very high but they would never be able to buy it at today's value...and Montauk is another area where most average working people are priced out of the RE market...
From what I understand, most resort areas that are popular as a retirement area (and FL was listed as top state for retirement in NYTimes article recently) have had this issue as long as it has been popular and had outside money/resources competing with local full-time residents...
AND smaller resort towns just lack the scale of industry and government with a different attitude that are necessary to support subsidized housing...
San Antonio, TX is one town I know that in the past had a sizeable part of its economy based on tourism/service industry-and that has a sizeable subsidized housing market...My sister owns about 5 small rental homes there and works for a friend who has more rental properties--
My sister has rented through Sec 8 at times and in some ways that was a better experience because the rent gets paid even if it might be a little less than market price...
San Antonio also has seen great growth in past 2-3 decades, has benefitted from growing its medical industry, has 2 universities and a strong community college, has a military presence, and other industries --
Now the population grown is coming from people who don't need subsidized housing but who ARE forced outside the city into new developments with longer drive times to their jobs to get affordable housing...
Same with DFW area where people often drive an hour each way (depending on traffic) from home to job...and Houston has ALWAYS had that problem...
So I don't know how much the people affected by this issue really understand about this local economy and housing before they maybe relocate or attempt to find their own living space...
Real estate as agents always remind shoppers is location based--very specific as to neighborhood, school zone, township, and various other local factors in calculating values...
Being downwind of the city dump or having YOUR neighborhood used as a drivethrough for a new subdivision built behind yours can have a detrimental effect on value--just has having some new retail come in that is convenient but not too close can raise desireability and value.
I know my daughter and her husband shopped very hard during the RE crash looking for a house they could afford that was close to the beach --- they were using FHA financing which sellers don't really want and even then there were not many possibles to choose from...
They were lucky to find a house and buy right before the market turned...
Same for us...
Read an article in the NYTimes last week about how some seniors and younger people were dealing with high housing costs and issues of isolation/mobility...
Seniors with room who own their house or condo/apt are being matched with younger people --college students, workers who can't afford housing on their own in such high COL area-- as roommates....the older people get someone to help with issues they have trouble with like shopping, walking their dog, companionship and the younger ones get reasonable rent in exchange for sharing some of their energy and time...
There are agencies who help match and screen for suitable pairing and while the people in the article were positive about the experience as you would imagine, there does seem lot of validity and logic to doing something like that here....
There are certainly plenty of seniors in this area who have independent living arrangements--own their own home or condo... And there are singles, young and old, that might appreciate having decent living space at reduced market price...
I know that some neighborhoods/HOA might have rules about multiple families in one residence but I imagine there is relaxed rule for "live-in help"....
In NYC you have many agencies and public/private service groups that might be willing to act as agents--around here, I don't know much about that infrastructure...
Menu prices always go up in season ~ fact. $ does not equal taste.
Last edited by toosie; 01-20-2018 at 06:34 AM..
Reason: Deleted orphaned troll quote
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