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Well if you're a white guy and had a hard time fitting in with the other guys.. and women I guess as a black guy I should reconsider.. is portland the same? San Diego? I did read it all and it is a shame because I had it pictured as a the COMPLETE opposite of the south yet it is the same?? I know I will be in the minority but coming from somewhere that has more blacks than whites i was welcoming the change. =\
I take it that the Haplesstransplant doesn't like Seattle... Such a stark view.
This has to be the first that I've heard of it, even given the reclusive nature of Seattle, that anyone would refer to Seattle as an unhappy place. I'll respectfully disagree on that novel that Haplesstransplant wrote. One of the best advice I receive was simply: "Like attract like." As annoyed as I might get with the workings of Seattle, I know plenty of happy and supremely lovely people living here in Seattle who would give their left arm to help me (and I them). Seattle has a distinctive taste... either you like it or you don't.
I think HaplessTransplant's post must have been very cathartic for him, and that is a good thing. If I read him correctly, all the people that he has met in Seattle--indeed, all the people who live in Seattle--are uptight, plastic, and fake-happy, without exception.
However, "pigeonholing" people doesn't work in the long run, whether you see them as 100% jerks (Seattleites) or 100% fabulous (Brazilians). It's more realistic to view people as individuals, rather than painting them ALL with the same brush. And it's interesting that, in your post, you spend quite some time explaining the many shades of your own character, yet you describe the people you've met as almost cartoonishly simple...
Hapless, I'm sorry things turned out this way for you, and I hope you will be happier in Brazil!
I think HaplessTransplant's post must have been very cathartic for him, and that is a good thing.
"Cathartic"... Sure, ok. But I'm a writer, yeah, like a real one, I actually write, it's what I do, working on a trilogy of novels daily. You know, it's one of those things I mentioned so 'extensively' about myself, as you're keen to point out.
And yes, if I'm going to write that much on a highly controversial topic about other people living all around me, which is easy and enjoyable for me as far as the writing goes, I'll admit, yes, I think it's only fair to reveal a little about myself, so I can be scrutinized on par with how much I dish out.
@Polyglott, &
@Inkpoe, &
to anybody else who comes after who wishes to indulge in a similar line of thinking as these two...
Great individuals aside, and yes I have met some outstanding *individuals* here in Seattle too, the culture, if that is our focused subject, is ultimately its own separate animal. Not to sound condescending, but if you read enough history and anthropology it quickly becomes evident that a people, or a culture, as a whole, as a collective which moves and acts as one organism at the largest scale observable, is far greater than the sum of its parts and has its own distinct attributes and modus operandi separate from any one constituent individual which comprises it on the microcosmic level. I hate to get all fancy with the terminology on you, I'm no intellectual braggard, I only use English as efficiently and functionally as best suits me. Check the English again if you're thinking that, you'll find I'm actually saying something with it...
In other words, if we look and analyze cultures and populations holistically for the whole, not reductionistically for the parts, we see that a culture like Seattle exists in its current form irrespective of any great individuals, or if Mother Theresa is your neighbor or Ghandi mows my lawn. Jesus could be my local friendly Starbucks barista and JFK my barber, would that change Seattle culture? Well, so long as these benevolent historical ghosts retained their character but not their fame (Jesus himself as the world knows him might attract *some* attention, after all) then, no, of course it wouldn't. Seattle would still remain just as cold and inhospitable, even if the Dalai Lama is your Project Manager back at the office and you both play poker on Thursday nights together with Thoreau and old Lincoln, and if *your* life is subsequently just so peachy.
Culture is the atmosphere you breathe, do you understand that, it is the quality and variety of the social environment which exists as a particular nearly inexplicable synergy of all human activities and behaviors combined, and can be neither redeemed nor worsened by either the saintliness or the devilishness of any one of its component citizens at one given time or another, or even a handful, or even many dozens or hundreds all together. It is something larger than us all which evolves with time, with many historical forces and precedents having slowly and almost mysteriously shaped what our culture is over time, and yet despite how ambiguous and lofty it sounds, it affects everyone, shapes their mentalities, outlines the pace and methods of their livelihoods.
The concepts above condensed: culture affects and determines individual members pertaining to it, almost incalculably more than those same individuals are able to each in their own manner and liking affect their overriding culture.
So... yes, the Seattle CULTURE is still cold, unwelcoming, difficult to live in and socially inhospitable to outsiders or lively, unique personalities in general who come here with the sheer audacity of expecting to be the same simple, folksy and affable sorts they've never ever had a problem being before, like they were able to heinously get away with in their respective backwater homelands whence they hail; clueless and colloquial visitors from all over who don't *get*, out of thickness maybe, the poor confused things they are, that they may not be cool or trendy enough to hang in Seattle, and that this necessitates they *change* in order to fit in, but not being as well schooled and cosmopolitan as the locals here they are slow to accept these mandates upon themselves, the ungrateful troglodytes. ESPECIALLY when they fail to laugh at some horribly obscure insider reference or joke in a posh little get together at some overly dressed swanky downtown bar and are thus frowned upon because of it, they should know better, the simplistic fools!
Sarcasm? Not fond of it, never use it, myself.
Lamentably, it may be even more difficult and agonizing to a score of legion of locals and natives who have simply been miserable or depressed here for longer, though I'm sure with them the often nebulous state of being many of them experience has become so pathological for so long they may not even be fully aware of their own blighted discontent, sort of like a chimp born inside a zoo, to whom the endless canopy and green mirage of the forest is not even a dream, let alone his rightfully intended habitat, having nill conception of the place.
Even if Einstein and Mark Twain both trim your hedges on Saturdays and chat your up about astrophysics and literature to your great delight, that doesn't change the social FACT that Kirkland, as a whole, is generally a snobby place where people don't care about much outside of their immediate little bubble of life and will rarely if ever extend themselves to open conversation and exchange on an equal level with a relative stranger. And it doesn't change the social FACT that most locals and natives will immediately begin to spread rumors and slander your good name if they find out you're from California, or Mexico, or Africa, or, you know what, that's a pretty big list, and I've been an insider in many of those unfortunate conversations where I've heard the uglier side of the predominantly white populations' racial and regional biases... but I'll digress and leave that one flame-starter to rest, for now..
*Do* You understand these concepts, and why your arguments don't hold much weight (no offense, I'm purely academically speaking here)? Please, think deeply on all this before posting again restating the same tired rejoinders.
And as for Brasil, there are enough pimps, prostitutes, gangsters, drugpushers, thieves, cons, hustlers, sharks, murderers and slavedrivers to give any slum in Vegas or ancient Rome a run for their money... but you know what? It's still Brasil. And if you know much about the cultures of the world, you may also know that most of them are far older and more deeply rooted in their ways and traditions than a mere mob of modern criminals and psychopaths in the gangrenously infected slum of one metropolis or another can ever hope to displace or *seriously* tarnish, though I admit there are corners of Brasil I never want to visit. No, the people there are not perfect either, by no means are %100 of Brasilians likable people. But in Brasil the atmosphere as a whole is so enjoyable as a whole that these sour remainders in the population do not spoil the meal, and are thus forgettable negative elements.
Reciprocally, the few or even the many decent souls in Seattle cannot salvage and rescue, apparently, proven by the experience of the many, what is altogether an abysmal place to exist. It is a place which feels to many who come here with an otherwise marked optimism like a burdensome, lethargic weight that drains their good spirits and eventually rusts and breaks their glee and drive, due to all their initial zeal and energy hitting flat against every surface and node and stranger they bump against up to the point they feel useless and exasperated and simply stop trying... UNLESS, of course, you are indeed one of these privileged 'insiders' we all hear about and secretly envy on our darkest nights. That is, if you are (hopefully) white, emotionally subdued, have an established network of peers, friends and loved ones that you neither wish to expand nor contract are are satisfied with the status quo in a city-level society that frankly, reminds me of 1950's America more than anything else I can think of. Ahhh, the 50's: McCarthyism, the Korean War and the very beginning of the mass, televised commercial homogenization of the American public, good times, good times...
And furthermore, if you are one of these insiders speaking with pity and lack of understanding in your tone to anyone who comes here as an unwitting adventurer or 'hapless transplant', heh, unaware of the true dismal nature of the place prior to their arrival, and then becomes increasingly disaffected and vocal about the shoddy and subhuman treatment they receive wholesale- which by the way is totally out of their control- then are you not also a self-evident part of the problem? (Rhetorical...)
Do you not contribute to what is to any outsider an OBVIOUS systematic social cancer if you have your little perfectly content and neatly organized life and network of colleagues, and in your satiated bliss you fail to sympathize or even comprehend the hardship, anxiety and uncertainty that soooo many people of all backgrounds and native birthplaces seem to unanimously exclaim upon *trying* as best they know to simply integrate and start enjoying life here already, only to never see that most basic of needs and desires even closed to being fulfilled, and then chastising them about how they must "have the wrong attitude, or aren't appreciating all there is to love here", just because your life is great and you don't care about their confounded and innocent failings to enjoy the same, except to casually respond "Oh, I'm sorry you don't like it, good luck wherever you go next." ? (Very, very rhetorical...)
You know what- the answer to those questions are so very painfully and immediately obvious to anyone other than a Seattle insider who is already well established and happy in their own corner and mode of life and who thus refuses or is self-convinced that there is no great issue here to make a commotion out of, that in fact, THAT, and them, are at the very heart of the problem. I'm not talking about you two or anyone like you personally as being 'problems', of course, I speak in conceptual terms.
And don't be sorry for me, by the way, please spare me... or anyone else who comes here with great promise and intrepid hope in their hearts, only to be reviled and outcasted for the rich wealth of personality they bring to the table, whereas in so many parts of the world even mediocre outsiders are a source of curiosity and cause for invitation.
As for me? I'll be in my beach house in Brasil in a year or so, property is not expensive there when purchased with an ample amount of American dollars, and I'm already a dual citizen. Oh, and my family owns a large farm in the deep south of the country, next to Uruguay, flat and muddy half the year but quiet, green and spacious nonetheless, so on weekends I'll drive down there and ride horses, have barbecues next to the barn with freshly slaughtered spit-roast lamb with all the farmfolk from miles around all invited. And all the while I can run my company from anywhere in the world with just a laptop and internet, so I can travel as much as my bank account allows, which will fast grow if current business trends persist. No, I wouldn't exactly be sorry for me.
One curious demographic I might show pity to if I were you, however, is the young, in specific, the next generation of Seattlelites: your very children, and I don't mean that as a petty insult because you're their parents.
No, i say that because the children of Seattle will be born and grow up here, and they too may become successful and well-adjusted insiders, you know, the smiling, pretty people standing in the crowd who seem like they have all the friends and parties to go to while another local boy or girl walks past wondering how come they never got the same chances to 'enjoy the good life' as their more photogenic and so sublimely 'normal' counterparts seem to partake of... but all in all, either way, they will all, even the ones who seem priviliged and satisfied, be deprived of a hardy and wholesome culture to live in, and maybe most of them won't ever even know it, having no outside reference, which is all the more pitiable for how helpless it truly is to be both miserable as so many of the young here are, without a hint of doubt as to how they feel, so plain they project it on their poor lonely faces, as children and teens are wont to do, and yet oblivious as to how or why, just stuck there, now knowing what to do about it, where to go to fix it, who to talk to, with nobody ever asking them what's wrong or talking to find out.
Depression, anyone? Suicidal tendencies? Alcoholism and drug-use? Over-prescription and over-usage of mental-chemistry-altering pharmaceuticals? Huge big fat ugly list of social ills unprecedented in the same type and concentration found here in most other American cities? No... no problems here... your children will be juuuust fine
Simple things, that any half-naked 'savage' in a deep-jungle tribe in the Congo or Amazon knows of. SIMPLE THINGS that any 'primitive' Eskimo is familiar with as they huddle for warmth in their igloos, scrambling to fish another catch and survive another week off of seal blubbler, you know... simple things... that any smelly and ruddy Mongolian herdsmen and his nomadic rabble of dirty-cheeked offspring take for granted, like being able to relax and take laughter and communal merriment in daily doses as they sit around the fire sharing thoughts and feelings, trading stories, passing down family wisdom, like so many of those 'barbaric' natives all around the world consume heedlessly without even having to *think* about it. Because for those ignorant hethans of the undeveloped world, though they may have to struggle and literally fight and hunt for their daily meat in a way we can only read about or watch in some National Geographic special with gruesome fascination, well, all those things we Westerners fumble with and cry about so often like having trusted neighbors, love and physical intimacy, family, friends, allies, good food and health, sport and the thrill of the wild are so commonplace and natural parts of growing up and life in general for them, despite their incredible hardships never knowing depression or unhappiness of any long and persistent sort... those natives being such husky and adaptive, emotionally resilient breeds of human, that surely they would be just as confused as to how we complain and cause each other such social everyday misery and malcontent as we are confused how they could run around the jungle half-naked and not pine for any great lack!
But surely the highly educated and commendably civilized members of your wonderful Seattle pocket of humanity will never endure grief for lack of these laughably simple things, no?
Like I said, pity your Seattle children instead, they collectively will need all your love and concern... and much, much more to help their plight from cradle to the grave living here, believe me. I know because I've been living among them, and amidst my rage and condemnation even i cannot help but feel great pity for them, knowing where I am headed and where most of them are fated to have to stay...
Hapless,
Stick to novels. City-Data 's Seattle forum is no place for your many paragraphs of great knowledge and wisdom. You are obviously way too smart, talented and knowledgeable to be in this land of inhospitable, cold, no talent poseurs.....
So what was your point? Were you trying to influence people considering a move to Seattle, or were you just trying to annoy people who live here?
If your objective was to influence people considering a move, you might have been more successful if you reduced the number of words by about 90%. You might be a writer, but brevity is not your strong suit. As far as content, I don't know that you're wrong. You feel the way you feel. Those are feelings not facts and merely saying things like " This is the way things are!" doesn't make them so.
I'm sorry your experience here wasn't a happy one. I'm sure that none of that had anything to do with you.
I once heard somewhere that you can't judge a culture and label it right or wrong. When you really think about it that makes a lot of sense. I suspect HaplessTransplant is doing just that.
BTW HaplessTransplant. You are indeed correct about Brazilian culture. In fact, many of the countries in that region are known for their warm, smiling people. In fact, believe it or not, the Middle East can be like that. I've known Kuwaitis that would give you the shirt off of their back no matter if they hardly knew you. Of course, I was also shot by a Kuwaiti terrorist over there too... I'm surprised that you don't have any complaints against Brazil though. I mean, there is quite a bit of racism in your country. It really stinks to be an indigenous or dark skinned Brazilian.
I'm no writer. In fact, I'm just a nughead. So let me give you my nughead view of things. I'd rather live 10 years in Seattle surrounded by a thousand of the snobbiest people Seattle can find than one year in Brazil surrounded by warm and smiling people. That's just me. I'm not sure if you wrote your last essay expecting anyone to be envious of the fine life you will enjoy in Brazil. I wish you the best. To each his own.
Well if you're a white guy and had a hard time fitting in with the other guys.. and women I guess as a black guy I should reconsider.. is portland the same? San Diego? I did read it all and it is a shame because I had it pictured as a the COMPLETE opposite of the south yet it is the same?? I know I will be in the minority but coming from somewhere that has more blacks than whites i was welcoming the change. =\
Dude... compadre...(and if I may...) Brotha... my GOD, do not come to Seattle, in the name of all which is holy. A black person here is to me usually a welcome sight, I don't care who they are, they could secretly be the devil's right hand man, I still welcome the sight because some color, ANY color, of ANY kind to Seattle is probably for the best... but truth be told, seeing a black person here anywhere else other than straight-up downtown Seattle where the sheer volume statistically yields more sightings, is like seeing a bear foraging around the residential streets of some sleepy Canadian town: you can tell all the white folks are soooomewhat used to it because it's not the first time it's happened, so they don't freak out, but then again they're put on alert a little bit, not because they're scared as much as because it's sort of an alien sight and they just don't know what to do or say, so they just stay real quiet like put hoping the bear eventually goes away.
Trust me, you don't want to be an outlying bear skittering among all the skeptical whiteness here... better to be a black man but at least recognized as a human man somewhere else! Not everybody is racist here, which is also to say that by far, not everybody isn't, but your strength, charisma, soul and liveliness, which if you're black I hope and assume you possess to some noticeable degree, would be stifled and wasted here faster and more abruptly than a nunnery in Las Vegas.
As far as color goes, of any kind, there are a fair amount of Indians here, I should note, but the disappointing quality about Indian men in Seattle is they tend to be techie transplant workers, meaning they have assimilated into the local culture all too stealthily and do not add much above and beyond Seattle's already placid and meek introverted techie culture, even though I generally love India and anything or anybody that comes from there. They definitely have great comedians, just YouTube "Russel Peters" or "Sugar sammy" if you doubt me, two recent ones I've seen, both hilarious (and I have pretty ridiculously high stand-up comedy standards, don't laugh to just anyone).
I don't know what to tell ya... other than, avoid Seattle like the plague (speaking of which, I really wish they would set up a biohazard quarantine zone around the entire city limits like in the movie 'Outbreak', just to make sure nobody here can infect the outside world, but I suppose I should probably leave before that takes effect...). San Diego is not bad, hope you like latinos there's a lot of them there. I like Mexicans but SoCal does have a huge growing illegal immigration crises on their hands. Honestly, the San Francisco Bay Area might be worth checking out, that's where I grew up. Not paradise for anyone, that's for sure, but they have a huge black population there, of all statuses and classes, much less racism because of that than somewhere like Seattle, I would imagine you could find your niche and groove there without much of a hard time.
Or, do like me going back to Brasil and move to Africa! Actually its funny i say that, because outside of Africa, Brasil has the largest population of Afro-descended people anywhere in the world. But I guess I speak Portuguese and I have family and property there already, so it's not apples to apples. I'll be honest with ya, I don't envy you, I'm white in a white man's world, and so far, at least here in America and Cali and the northwest, I've had a damn tough time settling in and feeling I belong somewhere, so i can't imagine what that same search and process is like for a black man living in a white man's world. And yeah, the world isn't doing all that great, not coincidentally... Best of luck to ya bud.
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Such a stark view. 
