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I doubt it would bankrupt anybody paying minimum wage (usually part time) workers 5 or 6 more bucks an hour. Just people being dramatic to make their point.
Ah, if you're a small business owner, and already pay people the highest state minimum wage in America, a sudden 70% across the board increase in labor is indeed enough to make a business no longer profitable. I work in a restaurant and see what our labor is, especially at lunch when prices are cheaper. We run an average labor cost of 30-35% at lunch. If this ever happens in Seattle our labor alone at lunch will jump to an average of 50-60%. Add utilities, food costs, etc and suddenly we lose money by being open at lunch. So, if we somehow manage to stay open at all, we'll be down to dinners only and that means a major cut in everyone's hours and some cooks and servers who only work lunches will have to work dinners or find other jobs.
Now, repeat what happens in my restaurant times every restaurant in town, as well as small businesses in general. See what happens?
Problem is that people who are clueless about business, like councilwoman elect Smaug, are trying to write laws that will have awful effects on businesses and, by extension, workers. This isn't a choice between fifteen dollars an hour and $9.19, it is a choice between $9.19 an hour or zero dollars and hour.
Want to see chicken littles? Suggest to leftists that minimum wage should be repealed and that workers should have the freedom to negotiate their own starting wages to make themselves more competitive. Watch the "oh no! That would be awful! All employers would cut all wages and all the workers would stick around and make only $2 an hour" whining.
I heard an argument that makes me think minimum wage itself is a bad idea: if I'm selling cookies that I make in my own kitchen, and the government says I have to sell them for no less than $5 a piece, how unfair is that? Maybe I want to compete with big bakeries that charge that much and hence want to charge lower.
I'm not selling cookies. I'm selling my labor. So, why is it that the government should be able to tell me what I can and cannot accept as pay?
What if a retail worker at a clothing store was at an interview and the manager was unsure about hiring her. She says to the manager "look, I am so confident in my abilities to sell clothing, that I will work for five dollars an hour. I'll more than make up the difference in commissions. Deal?"
Without a minimum wage, she would be free to wheel and deal and negotiate her wages...with a minimum wage, an Orwellian government tells her what she can and cannot accept as payment and takes the choice out of her hands.
The more I think about it, the more it seems that all minimum wage is is another attempt at government to run my life. I'm a grown man, I can negotiate my own damn wages and I don't need the government telling me what I should or should no settle for.
Next up: Maximum body weight index for dating. All men will be banned from dating larger women to protect them from being exploited by big girls. After all, the people shouldn't settle for dating big women (chubby chasers are a right-wing plot) Communist councilwoman Sawant will do this right commanding all people who sell their labor to accept fifteen dollars and hour an no less.
Want to see chicken littles? Suggest to leftists that minimum wage should be repealed and that workers should have the freedom to negotiate their own starting wages to make themselves more competitive. Watch the "oh no! That would be awful! All employers would cut all wages and all the workers would stick around and make only $2 an hour" whining.
LOL That's because of past history, that's why there's a minimum wage in the first place. How droll LOL
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I heard an argument that makes me think minimum wage itself is a bad idea: if I'm selling cookies that I make in my own kitchen, and the government says I have to sell them for no less than $5 a piece, how unfair is that? Maybe I want to compete with big bakeries that charge that much and hence want to charge lower.
I'm not selling cookies. I'm selling my labor. So, why is it that the government should be able to tell me what I can and cannot accept as pay?
This is straight up insane! It's little winder why those who oppose increases have failed so far. If you're using arguments like that, best of luck to you.
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What if a retail worker at a clothing store was at an interview and the manager was unsure about hiring her. She says to the manager "look, I am so confident in my abilities to sell clothing, that I will work for five dollars an hour. I'll more than make up the difference in commissions. Deal?"
Without a minimum wage, she would be free to wheel and deal and negotiate her wages...with a minimum wage, an Orwellian government tells her what she can and cannot accept as payment and takes the choice out of her hands.
Because it's the employers who have proven not to be honest and lets face it, this example is bankrupt of any logic what so ever. A person should negotiate their wages because YOU say so? You know there are jobs out there where you can do that right? If that's what you like to do, then by all means do that!
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The more I think about it, the more it seems that all minimum wage is is another attempt at government to run my life. I'm a grown man, I can negotiate my own damn wages and I don't need the government telling me what I should or should no settle for.
Nah, let's let people like you do the telling instead. Newsflash hotshot, you're not the only one living in this country. I don't like everything the government does either but guess what, this is a nation, if you want to have it your way, go to Burger King.
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Next up: Maximum body weight index for dating. All men will be banned from dating larger women to protect them from being exploited by big girls. After all, the people shouldn't settle for dating big women (chubby chasers are a right-wing plot) Communist councilwoman Sawant will do this right commanding all people who sell their labor to accept fifteen dollars and hour an no less
More proof that if I keep arguing with you, onlookers will think I'm every bit as daft.
You cannot win to argue with socialists. They use the beautiful slogans to fool many and use them to help these socialists holding to the power. On the surface, the socialist seems helping the poor, but, the reality is that the poor might be benefit in short term, but would be hurt in long term. Once you depending on others' hand out, it will be hard to becoming independent. A tough life in earlier age might not be a bad thing. Many of us went through that stage without demanding others to pay us higher wage. There are many opportunities in this country. People will be rewarded by working hard with less complain. This country and tax payers do not owe us ANYTHING!
I grew up under communism and know how the system work. I hope that this great country will not head to that direction.
Because it's the employers who have proven not to be honest and lets face it, this example is bankrupt of any logic what so ever. A person should negotiate their wages because YOU say so?
And I can work for no less than fifteen an hour because YOU say so? What if I want to earn less to get a start in a company and prove to my employer that I can do better and get a raise above what the minimum is later? I have no opt out under the current system.
Also, plenty of employers are honest. If I don't like my job, I can always find another one. I've done so many times before.
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You know there are jobs out there where you can do that right? If that's what you like to do, then by all means do that!Nah, let's let people like you do the telling instead.
I would be perfectly okay with there being an "opt out of minimum wage" system were people could get a card that says you've opted out of the minimum wage system and prefer to negotiate yourself. As it stands now, I am not, by law, allowed to negotiate a wage below $9.19 an hour. It's unfair both to me and my employers.
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Newsflash hotshot, you're not the only one living in this country. I don't like everything the government does either but guess what, this is a nation, if you want to have it your way, go to Burger King.
So I should just shut up and let the government tell me how to live my life? Okay...
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More proof that if I keep arguing with you, onlookers will think I'm every bit as daft.
It is a serious question: why stop with money? People also need other things on the hierarchy of needs. Lots of people aren't getting enough sex for example, so should women be forbidden to give up the goods? Should we have a "minimum laid" along with "minimum wage"?
Let me deal with this on my own. I don't need government's help to live my life the way I want to live it.
And I can work for no less than fifteen an hour because YOU say so? What if I want to earn less to get a start in a company and prove to my employer that I can do better and get a raise above what the minimum is later? I have no opt out under the current system.
Also, plenty of employers are honest. If I don't like my job, I can always find another one. I've done so many times before.
I would be perfectly okay with there being an "opt out of minimum wage" system were people could get a card that says you've opted out of the minimum wage system and prefer to negotiate yourself. As it stands now, I am not, by law, allowed to negotiate a wage below $9.19 an hour. It's unfair both to me and my employers.
So I should just shut up and let the government tell me how to live my life? Okay...
It is a serious question: why stop with money? People also need other things on the hierarchy of needs. Lots of people aren't getting enough sex for example, so should women be forbidden to give up the goods? Should we have a "minimum laid" along with "minimum wage"?
Let me deal with this on my own. I don't need government's help to live my life the way I want to live it.
Sure sounds like you've "evolved", VP. Wasn't very long ago when you were espousing socialism.
I just have a few comments:
1. In many states, restaurant workers are exempt from minimum wage because they get tips. That's not the case in WA. Did lots of restaurants go out of business when that changed here?
2. In countries like Denmark, there's a much higher percentage of workers who are union members, are required to join the unions, and the unions have a much larger influence in politics. Since the unions negotiate wages, they don't need a minimum wage.
3. In this state, businesses pay a huge Business and Occupation tax, based on revenue, not profit. Doesn't it make sense that if we're going to mandate a much higher minimum wage(and 15$ right away is insane)that we lower the B&O tax in a big way?
4. Seattle is a very expensive place to live. It makes sense to me that the minimum wage within Seattle should be higher than the rest of the state's, but going to 15 right away is insanity. Why not 10 or 15% higher than the state minimum wage, coupled with a drop in the B&O tax rate?
And I can work for no less than fifteen an hour because YOU say so? What if I want to earn less to get a start in a company and prove to my employer that I can do better and get a raise above what the minimum is later? I have no opt out under the current system.
Also, plenty of employers are honest. If I don't like my job, I can always find another one. I've done so many times before.
I would be perfectly okay with there being an "opt out of minimum wage" system were people could get a card that says you've opted out of the minimum wage system and prefer to negotiate yourself. As it stands now, I am not, by law, allowed to negotiate a wage below $9.19 an hour. It's unfair both to me and my employers.
So I should just shut up and let the government tell me how to live my life? Okay...
It is a serious question: why stop with money? People also need other things on the hierarchy of needs. Lots of people aren't getting enough sex for example, so should women be forbidden to give up the goods? Should we have a "minimum laid" along with "minimum wage"?
Let me deal with this on my own. I don't need government's help to live my life the way I want to live it.
Like I said, there are jobs where you can negotiate your wages, hell I've done it. There are also jobs that are commission only where you get paid for how much effort you put in, jut the way you like it. Then again, I'll back off from that for now because I don't know if jobs like that are in Washington. If they are then why must everything be that way?
Ira asked a few good questions so I'll wait before continuing on.
Location: East of Seattle since 1992, 615' Elevation, Zone 8b - originally from SF Bay Area
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Originally Posted by Gentoo
Like I said, there are jobs where you can negotiate your wages, hell I've done it. There are also jobs that are commission only where you get paid for how much effort you put in, jut the way you like it. Then again, I'll back off from that for now because I don't know if jobs like that are in Washington. If they are then why must everything be that way?
Ira asked a few good questions so I'll wait before continuing on.
These are not jobs that have commission, like baggage handlers, wait staff, fast food counter people and burger flippers, hotel maids, and retail store clerks. I think minimum wages should be set by states and even cities, based on the local cost of living, but a jump of over 60% from $9.19 to $15 is too much to do at once and will end up having a negative effect on many of the workers it's intended to help. One company, at a resort hotel near the airport is doing a huge 16 million $ expansion to increase business to remain profitable with the $15 minimum, but not many can afford that.
I guess we'll soon see how this experiment plays out.
You missed my point. VP wanted to know why people couldn't negotiate wages or be paid based on the work you do. I simply said such jobs already existed for those who wanted them.
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I think minimum wages should be set by states and even cities, based on the local cost of living, but a jump of over 60% from $9.19 to $15 is too much to do at once and will end up having a negative effect on many of the workers it's intended to help. One company, at a resort hotel near the airport is doing a huge 16 million $ expansion to increase business to remain profitable with the $15 minimum, but not many can afford that.
they can be set by cities, most cities just choose not to exercise that. San Francisco set it's own minimum wage to 10.55 hr and will likely raise it again when CA raises theirs. And, I've already said I don't see a 15 dollar minimum wage.
Sure sounds like you've "evolved", VP. Wasn't very long ago when you were espousing socialism.
Social democracy is when people get equal opportunity, socialism is where the government enforces equal outcome. There is a difference.
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I just have a few comments:
1. In many states, restaurant workers are exempt from minimum wage because they get tips. That's not the case in WA. Did lots of restaurants go out of business when that changed here?
They just raised prices, and it was a state wide thing. This is one city. While it's easy for someone in Seattle to go to Bellevue or Shoreline for dinner it's harder for someone in Seattle to go to Oregon for dinner, unless they live in Vancouver which is exactly what they do.
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2. In countries like Denmark, there's a much higher percentage of workers who are union members, are required to join the unions, and the unions have a much larger influence in politics. Since the unions negotiate wages, they don't need a minimum wage.
Well there's the answer: make it illegal in Seattle to fire someone or refuse to hire someone simply for being a union member. That would make a lot more sense than forcing everyone from Macy's to the Taco truck up the road to pay people fifteen dollars and hour.
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3. In this state, businesses pay a huge Business and Occupation tax, based on revenue, not profit. Doesn't it make sense that if we're going to mandate a much higher minimum wage(and 15$ right away is insane)that we lower the B&O tax in a big way?
Taxes on business should be progressive. A small shop and a large corporation shouldn't pay the same tax rate.
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4. Seattle is a very expensive place to live. It makes sense to me that the minimum wage within Seattle should be higher than the rest of the state's, but going to 15 right away is insanity. Why not 10 or 15% higher than the state minimum wage, coupled with a drop in the B&O tax rate?
Exactly. I could understand having a state wide law saying that suburbs and rural areas will have a minimum wage of $9.19 an hour, and urban cores will have a minimum wage of maybe ten dollars an hour. That would make sense...but a 70% increase in ONE city, essentially overnight, with nearby cities still staying at $9.19 an hour? Give me a break.
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