Any good New York style pizza in Seattle

[RotseCherut]

I walked into Italian Family Pizza but the only meat topping they had was pork. Being Jewish (not very observant one, but still) I decided that would not work for me since I do not eat pork. Sad to say, I walked out of the place. The pizza looked huge and very appetizing though. Sadly, a pizza place that only offers pepperoni, pork sausage and pork meatballs for a topping already loses my vote. I also find it hard to believe their calzones would be better than Valarmos. Valarmos calzones are like eating a piece of heaven. I would think Valarmos could hold its own even if it was located in the heart of Italian Brooklyn.

Originally Posted by treuphax

Nobody's obliged to like the same things.

Good pizza's nice. Good company's more important.
Mediocre pizza can't really ever ruin good company.

Try eating with a group of Italians, especially from the old country. Nothing can ruin a dinner occasion more than bad food.. I know a story about an old East Coast Italian immigrant who lived in Brooklyn. His daughter invited him and her mother to the Olive Garden one night. He didn't want to go, but wanted to be with his daughter who he hadn't seen in a while. Well, he was so astounded by how horrible the food was and how much it lacked in authenticity he threw a fit. He got from his chair in middle of eating and walked in the kitchen. He scolded the cooks and started to teach them the proper means of how things are cooked, spices, techniques, stories about the food he and his family would make, etc. Yes, he actually did this. He refused to eat the rest of his meal and the night was ruined.

Italians are very serious about their food, never underestimate that. It is almost like a religion to them.

[treuphax]

Originally Posted by RotseCherut

I walked into Italian Family Pizza but the only meat topping they had was pork. Being Jewish (not very observant one, but still) I decided that would not work for me since I do not eat pork. Sad to say, I walked out of the place. The pizza looked huge and very appetizing though. Sadly, a pizza place that only offers pepperoni, pork sausage and pork meatballs for a topping already loses my vote. I also find it hard to believe their calzones would be better than Valarmos. Valarmos calzones are like eating a piece of heaven. I would think Valarmos could hold its own even if it was located in the heart of Italian Brooklyn.

I'd like to try your recommendation of Valarmos, but Brooklyn, NY isn't so convenient.

At Italian Family I usually get a small pie and a big salad to share for two. It's even enough to satisfy two active grown men... Ounce for ounce, dollar for dollar, you'd probably get more food if you order the big one, but it does take MUCH longer to bake than the little one. I usually order plain but also sometimes with mushrooms. In my opinion, to evaluate a pizza, especially a thin NYC style one, it's best to leave all the toppings off. Minimalism, if you will. First, they can overpower the flavor of the sauce and crust. With plain pizza one can better appreciate the subtle flavors and textures, tomato, herbs, olive oil and cheese Toppings also distract from the execution of the crust. Whether art, science or both, this really takes a lot of skill and is pretty complicated chemistry and biology. Gotta get the yeast / fluid / flour ratio right. Gotta let it rise the right time and temperature. Better not overhandle or manipulate it wrong when you're pulling that little ball of dough out to the pizza shape. The baking is then another whole art and science too, temperature, time, oven load, rotation, etc...

Sure I still definitely enjoy a pizza with a lot of stuff on it, whether the tradition toppings or new inventive ones (pineapple though, wtf?). Not ashamed to say I can even find pleasure in something totally pimped up from Pizza Hut... But simplicity is the hardest test. Like with beer or wine, you can take an unskilled product and jazz it up with flavors or hops (I guess those little herbal blossoms are just another kind of flavor) and conceal many defects. Toppings are cool on pizza but it's hard to hide anything with a naked one. Furthermore toppings can complicate things when baking. The heavy distribution of raw and dense ingredients on the top and the moisture they release and the mean that baking it right is really hard while keeping it from getting scorched or soggy.

On the question of pork or other meat, I can't really help you, especially if you insist on having some meat topping. With pizza I don't think it's so much about the meat itself, but rather the flavors the meat add to the composition while baking. Chicken obviously isn't very flavorful and doesn't add much and even beef is pretty neutral too. I think pork is so popular because of the all those fats can carry so much of that smoky meaty "umami" savoriness that it releases while baking.

As much as I like the Italian Family there might be a little bit of attitude that one could interpret something like, "Eh, we're da experts; we're going to make our product da way we think outta be. Whatsamatta witchu? You wanna do what and put what on your pizza?" They're friendly enough and do try to accommodate reasonable requests, but I don't get the feeling they're going to take customers seriously who try to tell them fundamentals how they should be making and baking pizzas. Might rub some the wrong way and it is certainly out of step with the current American dining trend of mass customization to always be able to "have it your way," where customers are invited to make even very complicated modifications of the products to be able to accommodate diverse tastes and dietary restrictions. I can really see the attraction of both approaches, let the experts use their years of experience put together something that's balanced... perhaps even exquisite. Of course it's possible we dining customers know exactly what we're doing when we dictate exactly which ingredients and in which order they should be assembled and how it all should be prepared... as if we're ordering a sandwich at Subway. It's pretty common we consumers really don't know what we're doing and overdo it or leave something crucial out. I've observed so many cases when the guests have insisted on preparing something a certain way and is very very disappointed about the result... mostly because of misunderstanding of the explanation or the inability of the customer to appreciate what role the various ingredients play and the consequences of their modification.

Of course leaving the pork off is eminently reasonable and if it improves your enjoyment, who could argue with that?

Originally Posted by RotseCherut

Try eating with a group of Italians, especially from the old country. Nothing can ruin a dinner occasion more than bad food.. I know a story about an old East Coast Italian immigrant who lived in Brooklyn. His daughter invited him and her mother to the Olive Garden one night. He didn't want to go, but wanted to be with his daughter who he hadn't seen in a while. Well, he was so astounded by how horrible the food was and how much it lacked in authenticity he threw a fit. He got from his chair in middle of eating and walked in the kitchen. He scolded the cooks and started to teach them the proper means of how things are cooked, spices, techniques, stories about the food he and his family would make, etc. Yes, he actually did this. He refused to eat the rest of his meal and the night was ruined.

Italians are very serious about their food, never underestimate that. It is almost like a religion to them.

Old world Italian immigrants go to Olive Garden, that's a hilarious thought! Somebody needs to write that story up for a film or a sitcom, especially if that angle hasn't been done yet. Compare the idealized fantasy from the advertisements with how a realistic depiction how an genuine Italian family might experience. Your story almost sounds like the teleplay but much more dramatic, depressing and sad anything funny for a sitcom.

When I explain:

Good pizza's nice. Good company's more important.
Mediocre pizza can't really ever ruin good company.

What I mean by this is that for me the most important thing about the meal is the people sitting at the table with whom I'm dining... the company at the table... not the company that owns the restaurant. Sure sharing an extraordinary exquisite meal makes the occasion even more special, but what I remember most about special meals is of course the conversation, the connection and the warmth of the good company. I think the fantasy of that image is what the corporation and advertising agency behind the Olive Garden is trying to sell us. (along with a fantasy of down to earth "Italian Authenticity") Can it the reality possibly live up to that fantasy? Does anything ever live up to Hollywood's and Madison Avenue's fantasies? But I'm convinced one can still have a satisfying time in warm company over a "decent" meal even at Olive Garden. I understand how a combination of high expectations and hopes together with the wish to deliver an excellent experience to our companions can lead to real disappoint when it doesn't live up to it. Frequently I feel a little nervous when I recommend something I like and invite people to join me. In their company I'm always a little worried that it might not live up to my billing or that my taste is being judged. It's almost better going someplace familiar where everybody already knows and loves that even if they don't deliver a peak experience that time, you still love the proprietors and aren't so critical to expect perfection.

The case of the old East Coast family I find pretty sad... indeed embarrassing. No matter how bad the meal was, I can't imagine the performance and outrage improved it. Especially sad if he ruined the time with a daughter he didn't get to see often No doubt it made it more memorable and maybe later they can all view it with a sense of humor. I've dined with Italians from Italy before. Of course maybe it's different with family than with friends, acquaintances or business associates. However I've observed that they are assertive and capable of making requests or complaints directly but also with charm and finesse. Perhaps the depths of the incompetence East Coast Italian American friends experienced at the Olive Garden exhausted their patience, however I can imagine how it could have been funny and indeed still charming if they were able not to take it all so seriously and have a sense of humor about. Things like knowing looks
or witty remarks perhaps mocking how the big American corporation with the huge budget and marketing can't measure up competition with anybody's grandma or in standards of authenticity.

Expectations of "authenticity" are hazardous with any cuisine. I don't know how they handle it, the Italians, Chinese, Mexicans, or anybody from a culture that many eateries aspire to offer supposedly an accurate representation of their cuisine. I know that even among "authentic" Italians, every grandma has her own recipes and I've heard some of the arguments about how some way is a sacrilege and this other way is the only "right" way to do it. So if the grandmas can't agree, we shouldn't be surprised when restaurants that are targetting mean "American" tastebuds fall short of "authenticity." Personally I think authenticity is probably overrated. Bring on the cultural appropriation! Isn't that the whole point of "fusion cuisine?" Drawing on different inspirations, creativity and inventing something different? I don't have much patience with fussiness and pedantry. I prefer to approach experiences with an open mind, curiosity and finally a sense of humor. That might be why I found Megan McArdle's recent column about an encounter with an "American Restaurant" in provincial France so charming. She can be pretty fussy when it comes to food, but that story is pretty cute and her attitude about it seems charming. As an American it's interesting to see how "American Cuisine" is imagined and what happens when they foreigners try to execute it.

https://www.bloomberg.com/view/artic...-american-food

It's not only the authenticity of the food that can disappoint, of course the quality and care sometimes falls short. I recently had a dinner at a place in downtown Bellevue. Not super exclusive, but certainly also not cheap... But dining on expensive real estate rarely is...

The food was really quite bad. I really couldn't believe how bad I found it. It wasn't that it was aggressively awful, noxious or inedible, it just tasted like it didn't make any sense... any sense as food anybody would make to enjoy themselves or any sense as food anybody would be proud to serve to somebody else. It was if what they prepared was something they never themselves tested and had no interest in trying. The last thing I am is a fussy foodie and I'm not going to say that I'm any kind of dining expert, but I know when fish and shrimp are overcooked and tough... or when the flavors don't balance... The best way I could describe the experience is "indifference." It was if they just didn't care... Indifference from the people who conceived the dishes and created the compositions as well as indifference on the part of the cooks that night who executed and prepared them and probably also indifference on the part of whoever trained the cooks and was managing the place as a whole. No pride in their work or creation.

Slapdash get it on a plate, get the customer out the door to earn a buck.

They really need to hire somebody SpongeBob. Sure it's nothing fancy, basically fast food after all, but his passion for his humble job and his product have made his Crabby Burgers irresistible to all Bikini Bottom and SpongeBob himself a big success.

So the posh Bellevue restaurant was a flop. What should I have done? Make a scene? Tell 'em to "fix it?" Maybe I should have? Maybe I'm just too passive, conflict shy and let it slide? (Maybe I fit in the Seattle culture better than I ever imagined?) What would that have achieved? If they couldn't be bothered to put in the right effort the first time, what was the likelihood they'd be able to get it right the next? It was also pretty clear that many of the component ingredients were "pre-cooked" in prep. I wasn't able to imagine that it would be possible to remedy the fact they were overcooked. They were probably overcooked earlier or on a previous day. I complain sometimes, especially if I know that it's not up to the usual expectations of that dish at that restaurant, when it's obvious there's been some mistake in preparation or if I'm confident they can do something to get it right. I do really hate being the pushover as often as I am but in that case I couldn't imagine "asserting myself" would have resulted in better food in this case, just more stress and disappointment.

So in the end, I ate the food (I was quite hungry) and I enjoyed a nice evening and a really interesting exchange with a business acquaintance... all without making a stink.

[cmswazey]

Best pizza I ever had was at a now long gone place. Seattle Sourdough Deep Dish Pizza Co. Oooh!!