Seattle (still) looks awful (Vancouver, Republic: home, construction, income)

[MechAndy]

I value your opinion and normally agree with you Happygrrrl.

There wasn’t even computers in most houses when Reagan was in office.
Elon was what 10 years old?

I’m no fan of Reagan
He was definitely senile in his second term.
He fired the air traffic controllers (my job I had in the military).
His administration even implemented policies based on the advice of an astrologer .

The homeless situation has been getting worse over the years.
This can be blamed on current urban policies more so than the policy of a senile man 40 years ago.

[Ruth4Truth]

Originally Posted by MechAndy

I value your opinion and normally agree with you Happygrrrl.

There wasn’t even computers in most houses when Reagan was in office.
Elon was what 10 years old?

I’m no fan of Reagan
He was definitely senile in his second term.
He fired the air traffic controllers (my job I had in the military).
His administration even implemented policies based on the advice of an astrologer .

The homeless situation has been getting worse over the years.
This can be blamed on current urban policies more so than the policy of a senile man 40 years ago.

I think the point is, that he created the conditions for the current extreme and festering problem. To wit: there are no more long-term residential mental health facilities. If it were deemed necessary to have some, they would have to be built, and with taxpayer money. If one accepts the excuse, that there was too much abuse of patients, as the reason for closure, improving the system could have been an option. It was pretty clearly a cost-cutting strategy, the beginning of a trend that's gotten out of control in Republican admins since then, as a way to cut taxes for the wealthy. The temporary psych wards in hospitals today have surveillance cameras in the rooms to deter abuse, and that works.

Yes, the ACLU contributed to the problem. That doesn't address the issue of underfunded community mental health centers, and lack of funding for housing of the patients, at the time that the original mental health hospital were closed. That issue has never been resolved.

In any case, it's a complex problem with a multiplicity of contributing factors, for sure.

[Diana Holbrook]

I recognize the point, but it's a bad point.

This is a wealthy country. If we want more mental hospitals, we can have them. We just need to demand them from our elected officials and be willing to pay for them. Are we? As MechAndy said.... Huge empires, both foreign and domestic, have been built in this time.

The fact is, we've been through the full careers of at least three generations of do-gooders since Reagan was in office. We have spent a LOT of money on social programs and low income housing. If people who have been LIVING in Seattle and making the rules here for the past 30 years can only blame Reagan for their problems, then I think we begin to understand why it isn't solved.

One of those careers spent helping the homeless was part of my own. Less than 15 years ago when I was working there and down here, there were no huge tent encampments of homeless people in town. There were no addicts shooting up in plain view in front of stores where people are trying to shop and do business. We were talking in our annual conferences in Seattle about outreach programs to go out and seek new clients and new services we could offer because we had unused capacity. (No social service worker ever works their way out of a job, after all ) There was not mile after mile of garbage strewn tarp villages up and down the freeways. They weren't even there even 5-10 years ago. This is a current mismanagement of what has become an epidemic of strongly addictive drugs, AND a failure to prosecute seriously those who use these drugs, steal from others and litter and pollute our public spaces. Fix that, and I bet we'd have room and good energy and money to spend on those who are merely mentally ill.

[happygrrrl]

During the last-gasp days of the California state hospital system, my classmates & myself interviewed for professional positions at some of them. I was offered a position but declined. Others that I knew started their careers in one.

The people that live in tents in public places, swing ball bats or machetes at other people, take a dump on sidewalks, scream at something that you don't see or hear...those types of people used to be behind at least 3 sets of locked doors on a ward in a state psychiatric facility.

Now, instead of Thorazine, stelazine, haldol, lithium...all miserable drugs btw...they shoot meth, heroin, fentanyl, drink booze, gobble up Vicodin, or whatever else they can grab up by begging, robbing, stealing or selling themselves or others.

Which way is better?

[flyingsaucermom]

I drove through Portland for the first time in at least 4 years this weekend... how many have you been that way lately? You cross the river into Oregon and it's immediately on both sides of the interstate pretty much Wall-E level apocalyptic hellhole under the overpasses. The city isn't as big as Seattle, but their homeless was just as bad if not worse. Worse in that their crazy, sick people were actually ON the freeway (I-5). Several. Including one in the median between north and south (how did he even get there?!?).

What the hell is wrong with the west coast? Everyday I'm looking at real estate in the midwest wondering if it's not to early to actually consider some of the listings.

[happygrrrl]

I met up with my cousin, about 3 years ago, at his daughter's house in Portland. Her house at that time was worth $850k...cute little house, cute neighborhood. Just 2 blocks away was a huge homeless encampment...tent city under an overpass bridge, continuing on the cement street medians. It was a warm day, so my window was down...rolled it up quick as the place literally smelled like s***.

On the same trip we went to Salem, to try & find my parent's house when they lived there. It was bad, I never want to see that again.

[jabogitlu]

I drove through Pioneer Square and lower downtown this evening. It actually looks pretty decent. I think the city has really made a concerted effort to keep some of the crap out of that neighborhood.

12th & Jackson in Little Saigon is still a MAJOR problem. It was gross there this evening - I would never take my family there for food etc, even at lunchtime. I'd go there myself, but I'm a big white guy who's very comfortable in an urban setting. But I can 100% see why anyone would avoid the neighborhood. The City needs to post a couple cops right on the sidewalk, on foot. I can't believe they aren't doing that now.... it's a no-brainer.

[TheTimidBlueBars]

Originally Posted by Diana Holbrook

I recognize the point, but it's a bad point.

This is a wealthy country. If we want more mental hospitals, we can have them. We just need to demand them from our elected officials and be willing to pay for them. Are we? As MechAndy said.... Huge empires, both foreign and domestic, have been built in this time.

I think we aren't as willing to pay for things like this as we used to be. We've had marginal tax rates for the highest income brackets as high as 91% in the past, and 70% before Reagan; it's only 37% now. It's hard to say how much of this is Republicans' skill at maintaining power vs. cultural shifts towards individualism, but Republicans have been much better at pushing the low-tax line than Democrats have been at pushing against it.

[ncrunner77]

I think the root cause of this in America (not unique to Seattle) is a mind-set mix of individualism and apathy (i.e. selfishness). It is "me, me, me" and "not my problem". Look at how many people and families in America strive to use every penny to afford that second home (mountain/lake cabin or beach condo). It is glorified on TV and presented as "the norm".

In other cultures/countries, the Scandinavian nations are often held up as gold-standard examples, it is more a collective mindset of "we, we, we" and "my neighbors problem is my problem is our problem". Having a 2nd home (and boat, and jet ski, and 4 cars), while your neighbor has to sleep in their vehicle, is seen as selfish and as "hoarding resources". It is very much frowned upon, almost to the point of shaming, as it seen as going against the good of society. Society is valued over the individual; they even have a word for it janteloven https://www.lifeinnorway.net/what-ex...is-janteloven/

It is interesting that the two states with the highest proportion of Scandinavian/Nordic heritage, WA and MN, also tend to rank highest in surveys/rankings (for what they are worth) of best American states to live in d/t their "good numbers" in quality of life, education, and healthcare. Keep in mind, relative to other states.

The fact that America is so large and diverse while such other countries are relatively small and homogenous contributes to some degree. In Norway, the "clan/tribe" is the country.

[Returning2USA]

Originally Posted by Ruth4Truth

Homelessness isn't due to anything "the Left" is or isn't doing. Much of the homelessness is generated by Wall Street investing in housing, bundling it up into investment packages, and selling those on the stock market. Voila: the Real Estate Investment Trusts (REITs).

They took over most of the foreclosed properties after the mortgage loan bust in 2008, they've been capitalizing the construction of rows of cheap-looking apartment buildings in boom cities like Seattle, then charging what they deem to be "market rates" even though many of their buildings remain half-empty, they've been taking over the last bastion of housing affordable to those pushed out of REIT-acquired apartment complexes: trailer parks, and are pursuing their formula of cutting services and raising rents in that environment. And now they're building housing developments in places like Bremerton and Seattle suburbs, and presenting the homes (with minimal yard space) as high-end rentals. When they over-invest in an area, as they did in Seattle, where you can see in some corridors block after block of their junky-looking apartment buildings lining both sides of the street, mysteriously, rents don't come down to reflect the glut of apartments they create. They disregard the basic law of supply-and-demand, keeping rents high, because they have hordes of investors depending on their earnings.

As to Vancouver BC, the city notoriously condemned several buildings of subsidized housing to make room for their Olympic facilities, then handed out tents to the displaced residents, and changed city laws to allow them to set their tents up in parks. What happened to those tent cities, I don't know. It seems like they'd be hard to miss. Maybe a later mayor figured out a solution. Or maybe they were moved to parks in parts of the city where visitors rarely go.

As to why a significant segment of the homeless are mentally ill, you can thank President Reagan for that. He closed the mental health hospitals, then failed to approve sufficient funding for community mental health clinics and affordable residential facilities or subsidies for the patients told they would be living independently thenceforward.

You can't compare the US to highly-taxed nations like Scandinavia and Canada. And Norway is floating on oil money, in addition to tax revenues. The US, meanwhile, keeps cutting taxes to people who don't need tax cuts, and closing down entire government functions, or cuts them back to the point of near-uselessness. Yet, the Right blames the Left for the resulting fallout, while the Right laughs its way to the bank as the nation crumbles.

You can't solve homelessness, reduce fire risk on federal lands, build an infrastructure that can withstand destructive weather phenomena and move existing roads out of the way of coastal tide surges and rising seas, with an ever-shrinking federal budget.

Lots of informative info in the post.

Another example of Ruth being one of, if not thee most, knowledgeable posters here.