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Old 01-30-2024, 03:13 PM
 
Location: Seattle
8,169 posts, read 8,289,381 times
Reputation: 5986

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Article link here: https://www.theurbanist.org/2024/01/...neighborhoods/

"Washington State could see more small neighborhood cafes opening up within short walking distances of homes, under a proposal advancing at the state legislature. If enacted, the change would represent a significant inroad in the rolling-back of strict zoning laws that have been in place for decades segregating commercial and residential uses in the majority of Washington’s lower-density neighborhoods.

House Bill 2252, sponsored by Representative Mark Klicker (R-16, Walla Walla), would require every city and town in the state to permit the operation of a neighborhood cafe in a residential zone, regardless of whether the zone allows other business uses. Under a substitute version of the bill approved Friday, as long as business owners didn’t propose a drive-thru, and the cafe wouldn’t be located on a street with only one egress (a dead-end road), there would be no size restriction on the amount of space a cafe could occupy, except a 500-square foot minimum. Cities also couldn’t require cafes to have more than two off-street parking spots, significantly less than the current parking requirements in many areas of the state. In Walla Walla, for example, current minimum parking requirements for a modestly-sized 1,000 square foot cafe would be 10 off-street spaces.

“This a simple bill that would give these small cafes more locations to operate,” Rep. Klicker said in a release touting his bill. “Neighborhood cafes are popular with many folks in smaller communities because they give people easier access to their services and create a stronger sense of community. By making these cafes more accessible, this bill would be a win-win for small businesses and the people they serve.”
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Old 01-31-2024, 10:41 AM
 
Location: State of Transition
102,188 posts, read 107,790,902 times
Reputation: 116087
Quote:
Originally Posted by homesinseattle View Post
Article link here: https://www.theurbanist.org/2024/01/...neighborhoods/

"Washington State could see more small neighborhood cafes opening up within short walking distances of homes, under a proposal advancing at the state legislature. If enacted, the change would represent a significant inroad in the rolling-back of strict zoning laws that have been in place for decades segregating commercial and residential uses in the majority of Washington’s lower-density neighborhoods.

House Bill 2252, sponsored by Representative Mark Klicker (R-16, Walla Walla), would require every city and town in the state to permit the operation of a neighborhood cafe in a residential zone, regardless of whether the zone allows other business uses. Under a substitute version of the bill approved Friday, as long as business owners didn’t propose a drive-thru, and the cafe wouldn’t be located on a street with only one egress (a dead-end road), there would be no size restriction on the amount of space a cafe could occupy, except a 500-square foot minimum. Cities also couldn’t require cafes to have more than two off-street parking spots, significantly less than the current parking requirements in many areas of the state. In Walla Walla, for example, current minimum parking requirements for a modestly-sized 1,000 square foot cafe would be 10 off-street spaces.

“This a simple bill that would give these small cafes more locations to operate,” Rep. Klicker said in a release touting his bill. “Neighborhood cafes are popular with many folks in smaller communities because they give people easier access to their services and create a stronger sense of community. By making these cafes more accessible, this bill would be a win-win for small businesses and the people they serve.”
The bolded explains why so many Seattle neighborhoods aren't walkable! That was a bit of a shock to me, coming from Berkeley, where most neighborhoods are walkable, and have at least small grocery stores, a pharmacy, and a couple of other amenities in each nabe. The proposed change still wouldn't address the grocery and pharmacy access issue though. And these days, there are very few, if any, small, locally-owned pharmacies anyway. In Seattle, it was Bartell's, but that's gone now, isn't it? And there never were mom-and-pop style pharmacies in Seattle. Bellingham's last one closed around 2015.
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Old 01-31-2024, 11:26 AM
 
Location: East of Seattle since 1992, 615' Elevation, Zone 8b - originally from SF Bay Area
44,551 posts, read 81,085,957 times
Reputation: 57744
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ruth4Truth View Post
The bolded explains why so many Seattle neighborhoods aren't walkable! That was a bit of a shock to me, coming from Berkeley, where most neighborhoods are walkable, and have at least small grocery stores, a pharmacy, and a couple of other amenities in each nabe. The proposed change still wouldn't address the grocery and pharmacy access issue though. And these days, there are very few, if any, small, locally-owned pharmacies anyway. In Seattle, it was Bartell's, but that's gone now, isn't it? And there never were mom-and-pop style pharmacies in Seattle. Bellingham's last one closed around 2015.
There are still some Bartell's left, Rainier Ave S, and 2 in West Seattle. We have one in Sammamish, too. My brother lived in Berkeley, and I used to hang out there a lot in the late 60s, especially along Telegraph Ave. I went to a lot of rock concerts at the Berkeley Community Theater.

The problem with this new proposal is that 60% of restaurants fail in their first year, and 80% fail within 5 years of opening. With a "neighborhood café" the clientele will be mostly limited to the neighbors, and with the high Seattle rent that will make it difficult to survive. Even a well established neighborhood restaurant may eventually have to deal with the owner deciding to sell and lose their lease.

https://www.kiro7.com/news/local/its...BOQCAQQRR5VTU/
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Old 02-02-2024, 03:54 AM
 
805 posts, read 539,960 times
Reputation: 2281
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hemlock140 View Post
There are still some Bartell's left, Rainier Ave S, and 2 in West Seattle. We have one in Sammamish, too. My brother lived in Berkeley, and I used to hang out there a lot in the late 60s, especially along Telegraph Ave. I went to a lot of rock concerts at the Berkeley Community Theater.

The problem with this new proposal is that 60% of restaurants fail in their first year, and 80% fail within 5 years of opening. With a "neighborhood café" the clientele will be mostly limited to the neighbors, and with the high Seattle rent that will make it difficult to survive. Even a well established neighborhood restaurant may eventually have to deal with the owner deciding to sell and lose their lease.

https://www.kiro7.com/news/local/its...BOQCAQQRR5VTU/
Yes, that's true. But it's crazy not to at least allow the option.
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Old 02-03-2024, 01:12 PM
 
638 posts, read 347,315 times
Reputation: 1107
Won’t change anything if you get robbed and criminals don’t get prosecuted.
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Old 02-06-2024, 08:50 AM
 
Location: North Idaho
32,634 posts, read 47,975,309 times
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It seems a little silly and is probably nothing but virtue signaling. "Look we are doing great things for society".

But I can't see it working. I can't imagine anyone actually opening a restaurant and thinking it would be supported by the people who lived close enough to walk to it. That sort of thing only works in mega-cities where the restaurants would be surrounded by high rise apartments and thousands of people within 3 blocks, who all have small kitchens and bad access to grocery shopping, and parking is so difficult that many of them don't have a car.
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Old 02-06-2024, 09:34 AM
 
1,494 posts, read 1,670,383 times
Reputation: 3652
So you've never lived in even a large town? Because that's how it works, look at a map of any older town. You don't need highrise apartment blocks, even the denser suburbs can support a few cafes. It's only the low density single family areas that are too sparse for it.
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Old 02-06-2024, 03:29 PM
 
Location: State of Transition
102,188 posts, read 107,790,902 times
Reputation: 116087
Quote:
Originally Posted by oregonwoodsmoke View Post
It seems a little silly and is probably nothing but virtue signaling. "Look we are doing great things for society".

But I can't see it working. I can't imagine anyone actually opening a restaurant and thinking it would be supported by the people who lived close enough to walk to it. That sort of thing only works in mega-cities where the restaurants would be surrounded by high rise apartments and thousands of people within 3 blocks, who all have small kitchens and bad access to grocery shopping, and parking is so difficult that many of them don't have a car.
Seattle is full of neighborhoods with corridors of high-rise apartments, and in some areas, many residents don't have cars. Many once-attractive neighborhoods and shopping districts in Seattle have become choked with cheap medium-rise apartment buildings--over-developed, in fact.
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Old 02-06-2024, 03:30 PM
 
Location: State of Transition
102,188 posts, read 107,790,902 times
Reputation: 116087
Quote:
Originally Posted by Transmition View Post
So you've never lived in even a large town? Because that's how it works, look at a map of any older town. You don't need highrise apartment blocks, even the denser suburbs can support a few cafes. It's only the low density single family areas that are too sparse for it.
And yet, even in the low-density SFH areas, neighborhood cafes are busy. Starbucks can go into any neighborhood, including those that already have a few local cafes, and garner enough business to be profitable.
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Old 02-08-2024, 10:49 AM
 
8,856 posts, read 6,846,043 times
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This is a good idea.

The sweet spot might be coffee/sandwich shops. They don't need a ton of infrastructure. People will come every day. These can survive based on small customer radii.

A sit-down restaurant with a full commercial kitchen is much harder. People will go to them far less often, so they need much larger customer radii. Parking, kitchen exhaust, and evening noise can be big hurdles.

It would be great for that sandwich/coffee shop to serve beer and wine too, but WA rules can make that implausible. I don't know the details, but it's why a coffee shop near me is 21+.

They obviously won't work everywhere, but there are many gaps all over town.

I'd like corner groceries to be included as well, not just cafes. Let people grab a few basics while out on a walk.
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