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Old 02-25-2024, 08:05 PM
 
Location: Cumberland
6,921 posts, read 11,174,306 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mhays25 View Post
Tennis seems SIMPLER than F/B/B, not more complex. All of the team sports have huge amounts of strategy and nuance. I suspect the guy who said that doesn't know these sports.
It's different between team and solo sports. Obviously a sport with 10-22 players all having to do things at the same time is going to make the sport "more complex" overall. That doesn't mean every individual player's job is more complex than in a solo sport.

If you aren't familiar with tennis, it can look like two people hitting the ball back and forth until one players misses, but like it's more complex than that. Ball placement, spin, player positioning, looking for tells on specific serves or service return choices, the list goes on and on.

I always say a good tennis player of ANY level has to have a Plan A, the way you want to play. Plan B, a response to what the other player does to take away Plan A, and a Plan C, or the special shots and tactics you tuck away until the key points of the match you MUST win.
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Old 02-25-2024, 08:17 PM
 
Location: On the Chesapeake
44,929 posts, read 59,929,483 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by westsideboy View Post
It's different between team and solo sports. Obviously a sport with 10-22 players all having to do things at the same time is going to make the sport "more complex" overall. That doesn't mean every individual player's job is more complex than in a solo sport.

If you aren't familiar with tennis, it can look like two people hitting the ball back and forth until one players misses, but like it's more complex than that. Ball placement, spin, player positioning, looking for tells on specific serves or service return choices, the list goes on and on.

I always say a good tennis player of ANY level has to have a Plan A, the way you want to play. Plan B, a response to what the other player does to take away Plan A, and a Plan C, or the special shots and tactics you tuck away until the key points of the match you MUST win.
Plan D for you-Shovel the snow off the court.

Back to the twelve year old question/premise.
Tennis is one of those sports that needs specific playing surfaces and equipment plus exposure to young people. The high schools I taught at had trouble filling out tennis teams (as well as golf and swimming) but always had a hundred kids for basketball and football tryouts.

Even here in SoMD where I live tennis gets very little traction. Some of that for schools is that tennis isn't a "marquee" sport so Administrators lobby for those that are when the money spigot opens.

One of the Elementary schools here was rebuilt. A major point of contention in the planning was whether the tennis courts would be rebuilt (after being taken out for the construction) or just forgotten. They are being rebuilt.

Whenever the County Commissioners buy another farm for "historical and cultural purposes" the ensuing discussion about what athletic facilities are going to be built on it never includes courts. They are talking about pickleball right now, but I have the feeling that will fade away in a few years and those courts will go to rack and ruin from lack of use, just like the skateboard park did.

Last edited by North Beach Person; 02-25-2024 at 08:26 PM..
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Old 02-26-2024, 10:07 AM
 
Location: Cumberland
6,921 posts, read 11,174,306 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by North Beach Person View Post
Plan D for you-Shovel the snow off the court.

Back to the twelve year old question/premise.
Tennis is one of those sports that needs specific playing surfaces and equipment plus exposure to young people. The high schools I taught at had trouble filling out tennis teams (as well as golf and swimming) but always had a hundred kids for basketball and football tryouts.

Even here in SoMD where I live tennis gets very little traction. Some of that for schools is that tennis isn't a "marquee" sport so Administrators lobby for those that are when the money spigot opens.

One of the Elementary schools here was rebuilt. A major point of contention in the planning was whether the tennis courts would be rebuilt (after being taken out for the construction) or just forgotten. They are being rebuilt.

Whenever the County Commissioners buy another farm for "historical and cultural purposes" the ensuing discussion about what athletic facilities are going to be built on it never includes courts. They are talking about pickleball right now, but I have the feeling that will fade away in a few years and those courts will go to rack and ruin from lack of use, just like the skateboard park did.
That a bit odd, but I imagine the comfortable season to play tennis in Southern Maryland is March 1st - May 1st sunrise - noon

My daughter is going to have to have try-out for the tennis team this year, at a school that can barely fill out a softball or soccer roster. Tennis is the popular social sport for the kids to play at a small Catholic school.
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Old 02-27-2024, 11:40 AM
 
8,765 posts, read 6,691,155 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by westsideboy View Post
It's different between team and solo sports. Obviously a sport with 10-22 players all having to do things at the same time is going to make the sport "more complex" overall. That doesn't mean every individual player's job is more complex than in a solo sport.

If you aren't familiar with tennis, it can look like two people hitting the ball back and forth until one players misses, but like it's more complex than that. Ball placement, spin, player positioning, looking for tells on specific serves or service return choices, the list goes on and on.

I always say a good tennis player of ANY level has to have a Plan A, the way you want to play. Plan B, a response to what the other player does to take away Plan A, and a Plan C, or the special shots and tactics you tuck away until the key points of the match you MUST win.
That sounds like the player-on-player aspect of basketball and football too. There's infinite nuance and strategy one-on-one, and that's often more important than physical ability.

Per your point, team sports do seem far more complex than tennis. Maybe tennis is too simple to be enjoyable for many people. I wouldn't watch one-on-one basketball either.

PS, it's still easy to have fun playing tennis. The ten times in my life that I've played, and don't always make clean contact (much like the ten times I've golfed) but it's still fun. At the "hacker" level it just takes decent coordination, non-awful cardio, and an ability to laugh off mistakes.
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Old 02-27-2024, 08:44 PM
 
Location: Cumberland
6,921 posts, read 11,174,306 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mhays25 View Post
That sounds like the player-on-player aspect of basketball and football too. There's infinite nuance and strategy one-on-one, and that's often more important than physical ability.

Per your point, team sports do seem far more complex than tennis. Maybe tennis is too simple to be enjoyable for many people. I wouldn't watch one-on-one basketball either.

PS, it's still easy to have fun playing tennis. The ten times in my life that I've played, and don't always make clean contact (much like the ten times I've golfed) but it's still fun. At the "hacker" level it just takes decent coordination, non-awful cardio, and an ability to laugh off mistakes.
Sure, but who plays one-on-one basketball for 3+ hours? Which batter-pitcher combination ever had a 3+ hour at bat? Who blocks another guy in vacuum for 3+ hours? Sure there is nuance, but to beat another individual in tennis you have to keep that thinking and match-up against your opponent for far longer than ever happens in a team sport.

Tennis only looks simple if you can't tell the differences, like the height at which player hits the ball, the pace they put on it, the spin they put on it, the placement they put on it, where they move afterwards to dictate where the shot must be returned, etc. etc.

Guys like Novak don't point to their head with that "look at me thinking" gesture just to do it. If you know what you are watching, you can see him twitch as he knows which second serve is coming and its timing, pounce on it like a cat and destroy it for a winner to break serve (Plan C as mentioned above.) It's something he sets up by watching service game after service game until deploying it when it matters most.

Sure, I have seen some hackers go out and hit balls around for 20-30 minutes and have some fun. But yeah, you gotta enjoy chasing the ball around a lot, be in good shape, and have at least enough coordination to get it in play enough to have some rallies. Some people do it, but only having done it 10 times in my life kinda proves my point.........it isn't a common hacker's sport. Either you play, or your don't.
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Old 02-27-2024, 08:55 PM
 
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Basketball is 5x5, but it's also five 1x1 matchups (with constant switching and subbing but the point remains). Football is much the same, particularly corners on receivers.

In any case the assertion was that tennis' "patience strategy and brains" was related to its lack of popularity in the US. The fact that more-popular sports also involve the same attributes, and are much more complex with entire teams exhibiting the same traits at once with great intricacy, makes it clearly false.

Maybe the point should be that tennis is slow and subtle and that makes it less popular to watch.

As a hacker, I'd always play a real game with scoring. It's not hard.
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Old 02-28-2024, 10:23 AM
 
Location: Cumberland
6,921 posts, read 11,174,306 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mhays25 View Post
Basketball is 5x5, but it's also five 1x1 matchups (with constant switching and subbing but the point remains). Football is much the same, particularly corners on receivers.

In any case the assertion was that tennis' "patience strategy and brains" was related to its lack of popularity in the US. The fact that more-popular sports also involve the same attributes, and are much more complex with entire teams exhibiting the same traits at once with great intricacy, makes it clearly false.

Maybe the point should be that tennis is slow and subtle and that makes it less popular to watch.

As a hacker, I'd always play a real game with scoring. It's not hard.
Yes, we don't disagree on that. Team sports provide more varied action as well, baseball is pitching, hitting, fielding. Football is blocking, running, throwing, tackling. Basketball is running, leaping, shooting, passing. Tennis is hitting a tennis ball. You have to really enjoy watching people hit tennis balls to watch tennis.

I don't mean to knock your game, or the fun you have going out. I know a guy who picks up old racquets at flea markets and goes out once or twice or year with them and friends to hit balls around. He isn't a bad player, he makes it work.
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Old 03-02-2024, 11:53 AM
 
26,866 posts, read 43,348,703 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by westsideboy View Post
It's easy to play bad basketball and still have a lot of fun. Not so much with tennis. It takes a while to get functional enough to go out and do anything but chases balls hit over the fence of the court, into the net, onto the others players court. One of the reasons Pickleball is popular is because the learning curve is less steep.

Tennis is also exhausting. To play, you have to learn how to still exert energy while you are exhausted. Rests are minimal for this reason, you are expected to keep playing past the point where your body would like to take a break and catch your breathe.


I think all the other correlations are true and matter. I will say there is another preselection involved too. To enjoy playing tennis means you are the type of person into self-mastery, hard work, and exercising to the point of being exhausted and still keep going..........is it spring yet?
So Pickleball is for those who don't like to overexert themselves? Doesn't that defeat the purpose of exercise?

It also explains I guess the excess of injuries in Pickleball from former couch potatoes not in shape enough to participate in a normal active sport.

Tennis can be exhausting but so too are competitive sports like Basketball, Swimming, Water Polo, Track & Field, Soccer and Football. All require self-mastery and hard work or at the very least some level of skill to participate and have fun while doing so. Even "bad Basketball" is lame and no fun if throwing up constant air balls or lots of misses off the rim/board.
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Old 03-02-2024, 02:06 PM
 
Location: Cumberland
6,921 posts, read 11,174,306 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kyle19125 View Post
So Pickleball is for those who don't like to overexert themselves? Doesn't that defeat the purpose of exercise?

It also explains I guess the excess of injuries in Pickleball from former couch potatoes not in shape enough to participate in a normal active sport.

Tennis can be exhausting but so too are competitive sports like Basketball, Swimming, Water Polo, Track & Field, Soccer and Football. All require self-mastery and hard work or at the very least some level of skill to participate and have fun while doing so. Even "bad Basketball" is lame and no fun if throwing up constant air balls or lots of misses off the rim/board.
Pickleball is a casual racquet sport that can be played outside. It is like tennis and table tennis in various ways. The learning curve is less steep because the court is smaller, the points are faster, and it's easier to hit a plastic ball with a wooden paddle up close to the net than being further back with a long handled strung racquet and hitting at a compressible ball capable of more spin. I am sure couch potatoes go out and play, and older people with joint problems (although I can't imagine this, the bending and lunging would destroy me, personally.) but anyone can play, including good athletes.

The point is that it is easier to learn and requires less exertion than standard lawn tennis.

Nobody is saying those other sports are easy, or players don't take them personally, or they require skill. It's about direct comparison. I played pick-up basketball and yeah, being really bad at basketball didn't matter, I ran up and down the court and had a great time. If you miss, all you need to do is grab the rebound and shoot again. I got much better over the years I played, but the enjoyment level didn't change much, I played because it was fun to go shoot hoops and run around with other people, not because I was good.

The proof is in the pudding, go to a tennis court and you will almost certainly see people who know how to play tennis there, or lessons being given. Go to a basketball court and you could find anything from a good pick-up game to people of any age double-dribbling and shooting air ball after air ball in their blue jeans. Pick up football can be high energy and ability, but it's mostly people running around chaotically and still having fun.

Tennis isn't a popular hacker sport, and I am not sure why people wish to argue it is.

As for exhaustion, understand there are not scheduled breaks in tennis beyond what you see on TV. The sport purposefully doesn't allow you time to rest on purpose. The term is continuous play, the game is meant to exhaust you on purpose. Players are booed when it perceived they are using "injury timeouts" or "bathroom break" to rest. It is different than team sports where time-outs, substitutions, and other ways of rest are allowed and encouraged.

ITF - 2017 Rules of Tennis (English)
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Old 03-02-2024, 07:26 PM
 
8,765 posts, read 6,691,155 times
Reputation: 8486
Pickleball is exercise. It's just the level of exercise older people should be getting, with less running around.
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