Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
Did you know the coach of the women's all round champions in the present the last Olypmic games, both Americans, is a Chinese man? You can see that even on the US soil and under US law, it still works. Why cast so much distrust? It is sports, and don't bring politics into it.
Liukin was coached by her dad (a former soviet gymnast) ... the silver medalist Shawn Johnson was coached by Chow (she did win a gold in an individual event - but not all around)
Not sure what that has to do with anything though?!
It's the US - we have people from all sorts of nations come over here an have success ... in fact, most of the gymanstic coaches aren't US born
Not to mention the multitude of athletes that carry dual citizenship or the athletes that train in the US while being foreign nationals and competing for another nation
Liukin was coached by her dad (a former soviet gymnast) ... the silver medalist Shawn Johnson was coached by Chow (she did win a gold in an individual event - but not all around)
Not sure what that has to do with anything though?!
It's the US - we have people from all sorts of nations come over here an have success ... in fact, most of the gymanstic coaches aren't US born
Not to mention the multitude of athletes that carry dual citizenship or the athletes that train in the US while being foreign nationals and competing for another nation
My point was your questioning the Chinese way of training athletes in some "secretive" way is groundless.
Simple fact - with the lights always out no one is going to know what is in the room so people will come to their own conclusions
I will also judge the crap out of the chinese way to doing pretty much anything - it's a complete lack of human rights and is flat out wrong ...... i also won't respect honor killings, execution for the crime of being gay, denying women rights & access or many other things that are parts of "culture"
So again - if you are a nation that has a history of cheating, civil rights abuse, run a national athletics factory, operate in complete darkness, control all access in and out and media coverage, can punish anyone who says anything derogatory about you or your program within the nation and produce athletes that look and produce in ways that are not the norm for even high level athletes there is going to be speculation
The chinese can cry outrage all they want - they really don't care - it doesn't impact them, their glory will be broadcast to the nation, any criticism that is allowed to get through will only be used as propaganda and they will continue to do what they want to do ....... if it really bothered them then they could operate in a bit more transparent way, but they won't
with all due respect, the US allowed the black people to vote (therefore treat them as equal human beings) how many years ago? Now it is some sort of judge in human rights? makes me laugh.
Speaking of cheating, civil rights issues, the US is one of the very few countries with a slavery history, not to mention a history of invading so many other countries such as Vietnam, Korea, Afghanistan, Iraq etc. Now it gets to be a moral judge? It's history is not indeed a glorious one, is it?
I am Canadian, so don't argue with me about "gay right" as if it were superior in the US.
You can speculate how they trained as much as you want. It doesn't make a gold metal less gold at all, does it? How did Michael Phelps etc win so many medals? You think others don't "speculate" too? You talk as if nobody question American athletes at all, or maybe you only read American newspaper.
Feel free to judge, just don't forget the US is judged by the outside world all the time as well. But wait, you probably only read news from English language sources and have no idea.
with all due respect, the US allowed the black people to vote (therefore treat them as equal human beings) how many years ago? Now it is some sort of judge in human rights? makes me laugh.
I'm not the US - I'm me
I never denied any black person a right to vote or would advocate such a position - in fact, I would consistently protest against any such position regardless of who takes it and the simple fact remains that the US has a much better position on human rights over the prior 100 years than China
Quote:
Originally Posted by botticelli
Speaking of cheating, civil rights issues, the US is one of the very few countries with a slavery history
This is simply not true - even if you look at the american slave trade you will see that it was just that - a trade that involved multiple entities both in what would become the US (founded by those pesky european settlers), africa and european nations.
Since you are a Canadian you should know that slavery was a part of their history as well - not being abolished until the 1830s - much of this was by the aboriginal people, but the english descendents were not without guilt as well .... although under British rule, it is still Canada
Not to mention that there is documented cases of slavery found in ancient history from pretty much every spot on the globe and it was a large part of the roman empire
Quote:
Originally Posted by botticelli
not to mention a history of invading so many other countries such as Vietnam, Korea, Afghanistan, Iraq etc. Now it gets to be a moral judge? It's history is not indeed a glorious one, is it?
It's history is actually pretty solid - again, you really need to learn the history of this world if you don't think that other nations haven't had an imperialistic bent - it's still not uncommon to this day ..... not that two wrongs make a right or anything, but to single out the US as being unique in that they have fought in foreign wars is pretty silly and narrow sighted
Quote:
Originally Posted by botticelli
I am Canadian, so don't argue with me about "gay right" as if it were superior in the US.
Again - reading comprehension - where did I point out that the US has a superior stance? I stated that I would condemn any country that feels they have a right to execute gays and that's not a cultural element worthy of respect - it's not part of the US culture to execute gays and definitely not part of my individual ethos .........
Quote:
Originally Posted by botticelli
You can speculate how they trained as much as you want. It doesn't make a gold metal less gold at all, does it? How did Michael Phelps etc win so many medals? You think others don't "speculate" too? You talk as if nobody question American athletes at all, or maybe you only read American newspaper.
Again - not once did I say that people don't or shouldn't speculate about American athletes - they have every right to
I merely pointed out why it's common to speculate against chinese athletes (or the east germans, soviets, etc that have come before them)
It's also a fact that the US athletics program is a world more transparent than the chinese and is not state run and there would be no government ramifications for any derogatory press that came out about an athlete - here you are free to speculate - in china you are not
Quote:
Originally Posted by botticelli
Feel free to judge, just don't forget the US is judged by the outside world all the time as well. But wait, you probably only read news from English language sources and have no idea.
Frankly, who cares? ... that's even further off point
I will definitely judge those who do things that are wrong and will understand that if you operate in darkness it will lead to speculation that you are doing bad things - especially when you have a history of doing bad things
My point was your questioning the Chinese way of training athletes in some "secretive" way is groundless.
No it's not groundless - it's fact
The chinese do train their athletes in a secretive manner
There is no way to rebuke this - it's fact
I never stated that the training was bad, the techniques improper or any other false premise you created in your own mind
Simply that the absolute fact that they train in a very secret manner and are isolated from the public and shielded by the national government will lead to a lack of independent information - this lack of information and transparency can lead to heightened suspicion
Would you not agree that the less transparent something is the more people will create their own image based on speculation?
This swimmer(Ye Shiwen) trained mostly in Brisbane, Australia with Australian coaches, so let's get that fact straight. She also grew 5 inches in a year too. Don't care if people speculate or not....she passed all stringent drug tests....she is a legit Olympic champion!
I merely pointed out why it's common to speculate against chinese athletes (or the east germans, soviets, etc that have come before them)
It's also a fact that the US athletics program is a world more transparent than the chinese and is not state run and there would be no government ramifications for any derogatory press that came out about an athlete - here you are free to speculate - in china you are not
You should know Ye Shiwen was primarily trained in Australia, so is Sun Yang, not some secluded secretive dark room where they do bunch of experiments on her.
Is that "transparent" enough for you?
Why it is common to speculate against Chinese athletes? It is based on nothing but bias, isn't it? America etc had a glorious history of doping, probably more so than China. You simply choose to ignore. It is nothing but prejudice. The Chinese did something great, there must be something fishy going on (even though there is no evidence whatsoever)
This swimmer(Ye Shiwen) trained mostly in Brisbane, Australia with Australian coaches, so let's get that fact straight. She also grew 5 inches in a year too. Don't care if people speculate or not....she passed all stringent drug tests....she is a legit Olympic champion!
exactly.
I don't know where the "secluded" part comes from. I guess if you WANT to believe something, you always find the reason to.
This whole Ye Shiwen controversy is based on nothing except western media's uncontrollable arrogance and prejudice against China. It didn't have any ground for suspicion from the very beginning. From the fact she beat her best record by 3 second to being faster than Lochte's pathetic last 50 M, it is all shaky “evidence" and have been proved nothing but jealousy.
When nothing worked, now new reason for doubt is Chinese athletes were trains "secretively". Can he be more pathetic and desperate than that? Ask Australia for the secrecy
I'm a bit late to the party here but it is ridiculous to accuse Ye of "cheating" based on the relative performance of her and Lochte's last 50m.
They basically swam the freestyle leg in the same time 58.6. The difference being that Lochte made his transition into the freestyle leg well ahead of his competitors while Ye was behind. In order to win Lochte just needed to stay steady while Ye needed to turn on the afterburners.
Botocelli's comment about Lochte's last 50m in the 400IM being just slightly better than the last 50m of woman's winner of the 1500m freestyle demonstrates that Lochte was cruising.
I award Botocelli the gold medal for this thread. Somebody fire up O Canada.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
(even though there is no evidence whatsoever)
