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It seems that we are far behind our enemy Kansas city. Kansas city opened up the power district in their downtown but why cant we open the ballpark villages? Theres little to no development, and despite funding into the city ,people are leaving by the thousands into the county to become "rich" somehow. Ive actually met city people who assume as soon as they step into the county they will instantly be in a good neighborhood with a good education. Im getting away from the topic. Its not just kansas city anymore, it seems like every city i go to is better than st.louis ecnomically and is getting more done to improve or stay constant. Even detroit seems to be getting more action done (not to say detroit is better than st.louis)
Ive also read interesting ideas of starting a beer amusement park/restaurant/bar in downtown and a idea to create luxury condo and resort on the riverfront. With the amount of available land we have im surprised we haven't attracted people to the city and especially companies.
If st.louis has so many resources (i.e tourism, 3 major hospitals, class, open land, major sports teams) how come we cant pool our resources?
P.S: This is not a hate message to Kansas City nor am i making it much about kansas city, and i realize probably have inaccurate facts. Also im not saying st.louis is bad but its not going anywhere.
It seems that we are far behind our enemy Kansas city. Kansas city opened up the power district in their downtown but why cant we open the ballpark villages? Theres little to no development, and despite funding into the city ,people are leaving by the thousands into the county to become "rich" somehow. Ive actually met city people who assume as soon as they step into the county they will instantly be in a good neighborhood with a good education. Im getting away from the topic. Its not just kansas city anymore, it seems like every city i go to is better than st.louis ecnomically and is getting more done to improve or stay constant. Even detroit seems to be getting more action done (not to say detroit is better than st.louis)
Ive also read interesting ideas of starting a beer amusement park/restaurant/bar in downtown and a idea to create luxury condo and resort on the riverfront. With the amount of available land we have im surprised we haven't attracted people to the city and especially companies.
If st.louis has so many resources (i.e tourism, 3 major hospitals, class, open land, major sports teams) how come we cant pool our resources?
P.S: This is not a hate message to Kansas City nor am i making it much about kansas city, and i realize probably have inaccurate facts. Also im not saying st.louis is bad but its not going anywhere.
I think you are thinking too much about things. You have to realize that KC is basically storming back from the dead and 15 years ago, KC was much worse than StL when it came to just about anything other than building up Overland Park.
Hang in there, StL is fine and still one of my favorite cities. I think Downtown StL is what is keeping StL down a bit. The city and county need to get on the same page and really put some effort into making downtown a more lively place and the quickest way to do that is through residential. StL has all the other components, transit, hotels, major attractions, sports venues etc.
KC has closed the gap on StL despite still being a smaller metro, but having lived in both cities, I still prefer StL as a metropolitan area and a city. Despite animosity there from west county, st charles etc, I think the metro StL area is 100 times better than the state line issues that plague metro KC.
You just need to figure out what it’s going to take to make Downtown StL the place to be and the place to live and it will take a lot of money. The riverfront needs to be rebuilt and there needs to be better recreation opportunities. All vibrant urban centers have extremely vibrant urban recreation and StL and KC both lack that. What has KC been able to do to get all its old warehouses and vacant office buildings renovated into housing that StL has not?
Baltimore has seen a ton of new residential construction in the downtown area and I think downtown Baltimore is about to storm back as one of the last urban centers to rediscover itself. If Baltimore can do it, I know StL can.
I don't know if it's stagnating more than other cities, it just seems like KC is doing particularly well right now for whatever reason, with the internet thing and IKEA. (Even though the STL market is bigger, closer to the Chicago distribution center, and we've practically been rolling out a red carpet for them for years. They certainly know how to snub a city). Ahem.
A lot of the "stagnation" has to do with the housing meltdown a few years ago. There were very grand projects planned before then, namely a 30-story bank tower in Clayton, the Bottle District, Ballpark Village, and Citywalk at Euclid. A lot of those projects have either been abandoned, shelved indefinitely, or severely scaled down. This phenomenon affected every major city in the country, not just STL.
I'm not so sure about the whole city/county divide. I'm sure a lot of poor city dwellers see the county as a utopia, but I also feel like the City's reputation among the middle and upper class county dwellers is improving with all the slow but steady gentrification going on in the city. I know a lot of STL and St. Charles County people who are moving to the City (one from Frontenac, even). The phenomenon in STL seems to be more of a slow, grass-roots effort to improve neighborhoods one building at a time rather than completing grand, expensive projects.
Wash Ave is a way more fun place to hang out in over P&L (it's pretty much exlusively chains!) and is just as, if not more, hopping on the weekends. And before the resurgence of Wash Ave we still had Laclede's Landing downtown even before that. Kansas City had nothing at that time.
Believe me, St. Louis city, as an urban, liveable place, is years and years ahead of Kansas City.
Walkable neighborhoods/entertainment corrdors in Kansas City:
Westport
Plaza
River Market
P&L
Brookside
Volker
Martini Corner -a total of 5 bars (I'd put it on par with Clayton-Tamm)
Waldo
Old Northeast -- again so very little to walk to!
Crestwood Shops -- that's a reeeeal stretch, but I'm trying to be magnanimous
Walkable neighborhoods in STL/near suburbs:
Wash Av
Laclede's Landing
Soulard
Central West End
Grand Center
The Loop
Lafayette Square
Benton Park
South Grand
Morganford
Downtown Clayton
Dogtown (Clayton-Tamm specifically)
The Grove
Downtown Maplewood
Old North St. Louis
I don't know if it's stagnating more than other cities, it just seems like KC is doing particularly well right now for whatever reason, with the internet thing and IKEA. (Even though the STL market is bigger, closer to the Chicago distribution center, and we've practically been rolling out a red carpet for them for years. They certainly know how to snub a city). Ahem.
A lot of the "stagnation" has to do with the housing meltdown a few years ago. There were very grand projects planned before then, namely a 30-story bank tower in Clayton, the Bottle District, Ballpark Village, and Citywalk at Euclid. A lot of those projects have either been abandoned, shelved indefinitely, or severely scaled down. This phenomenon affected every major city in the country, not just STL.
I'm not so sure about the whole city/county divide. I'm sure a lot of poor city dwellers see the county as a utopia, but I also feel like the City's reputation among the middle and upper class county dwellers is improving with all the slow but steady gentrification going on in the city. I know a lot of STL and St. Charles County people who are moving to the City (one from Frontenac, even). The phenomenon in STL seems to be more of a slow, grass-roots effort to improve neighborhoods one building at a time rather than completing grand, expensive projects.
Couldn't agree with this more. This is the sort of long-term gentrification Kansas City has been sluggish on. I'd call Waldo the best example of otherwise, but with Wornall, this big giant street full of front-facing parking lots, being the main thoroughfare it just doesn't feel all that urban, no matter how many bars open up.
I mean Hyde Park in Kansas City has seen a great amount of progress in the last 5-10 years, but it's only residential. Really, there's just nothing to walk to. It's bordering on strange. Central neighborhoods like Coleman Highlands are the same way -- lovely homes, easy commutes to downtown and the Plaza but it's laid out to be indistinguishable from a suburb. There are no commercial corridors -- more in line with our southwestern neighborhoods like St. Louis Hills. Southampton is a walker's paradise in comparison.
And then don't even get me started on free festivals, concerts, and general community activities in the city. KC is just sleepy, truly. There's always so much more going on in St. Louis. My SO, who is from KC originally agrees with me, so we're pretty sure that's not just my St. Louis boosterism coming through (of which I have plenty, clearly!)
I think people need to sit back and think about all of the positive things going on in a slow economy. The GM plant in Wentzville just added buildings, shifts and employees, not to mention the construction jobs. Ralcorp bought Italian American Pasta Co. and is moving the HQ to STL. We still have an abnormal amount of Fortune 500 and F 1000 companies for a metro just under 3 million. Tons of MAJOR private companies. I think we still have some things going for us.
The Central Library just got a huge facelift, Ballpark Village is a go
(I think), BJC is getting ready to put $1.2 Billion into their campus, a ton of infrastructure work is getting done (New Mississippi River bridge, Boone Bridge, Grand Ave bridge, Kingshighway(hill) bridge, 64-40 and the Blanchette Bridge. All of these infrastructure investments will pay off down the road. A new 8 story Drury Hotel is being built in Brentwood. New residential is going in at the Highlands, The Arcade and some of the last vacant buildings downtown are being developed. We've seen billions invested in our core and I see that returning with the economy.
I mention all of this just to remind everyone that STL is not dead. Slower than normal, maybe so, but not dead!
It seems that we are far behind our enemy Kansas city. Kansas city opened up the power district in their downtown but why cant we open the ballpark villages?
Kansas City guaranteed the bonds and is currently paying out between 2 and 3 million a year in funding to make up for district short falls. Darlene Green Comptroller for the City of St. Louis refused to back the bonds and Cordish took their time. Ultimately this will work out better as the site develops by costing the city less, KC is on the hook for alot of money. Also the first phase of BV was recently approved and will break ground in November.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Amercity
Theres little to no development, and despite funding into the city
Quite a bit going on now, Chemical and Arcade buildings are going through due diligence, Metropolitan building just finished, Parc pacific and the Luarel opened earlier this year, adding over 400 units to downtown. MX will open 3 restaurants and the movie theater this year, tons of neighborhood development of the South Side, Union Station development will be announced soon, Grand Center, the Grove and The West End are all making tons of progress, BJC is about to put ONE BILLION dollars into its campus, Loop trolly is coming along, 60 million dollar mixed use development in the Loop. The Arch grounds renovation, Ball Park village phase I, Couples building #9, Cherokee Street has something new and funky every day. South Grand has added tons of renovated properties and Honestly I could go on…
This is a good web site for you; St. Louis Neighborhood Development Blog - Page 1 of 17 they post one new urban redevelopment project, either under way, or completed within the last 6 months. KC while they have done a nice job in the River, Crown, Plaza corridor, has seen very little urban development outside of that corridor, and even what has been done in downtown KC has used a lot of MHDC money, in STL most of our allotted MHDC projects happen outside of downtown. There is no neighborhood redevelopment, let alone housing stock, in KC that rivals Lafayette Square, Soulard, Benton park Tower Grove East, Shaw, or Tower Grove South... and that my friend is actually living urban... and it is a rarity in the US,
Quote:
Originally Posted by Amercity
,people are leaving by the thousands into the county to become "rich" somehow.
Who do you think is leaving the city and who is moving in? Hint check the last census, look at age, education level and income level of move outs vs move ins.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Amercity
Ive actually met city people who assume as soon as they step into the county they will instantly be in a good neighborhood with a good education.
County lost population in the last census, about 1%. Now is the time to start the consolidation talks.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Amercity
Im getting away from the topic. Its not just kansas city anymore, it seems like every city i go to is better than st.louis ecnomically and is getting more done to improve or stay constant. Even detroit seems to be getting more action done (not to say detroit is better than st.louis).
We are actually about the middle of the pack nationwide. KC really has marginally out performed STL economically. If you take the Missouri side of both metros STL outperforms KC by a healthy margin, check out the Mo Economic Research Council MERIC Home the Kansas suburbs have been both stealing businesses and outperforming the MO side. The “power corridor” shifted to Kansas years ago, and the wealth of the region naturally followed.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Amercity
Ive also read interesting ideas of starting a beer amusement park/restaurant/bar in downtown and a idea to create luxury condo and resort on the riverfront. With the amount of available land we have im surprised we haven't attracted people to the city and especially companies.
Urban environments are a tough sell anywhere, outside of prestige addresses (Manhattan, The Loop) or employment clusters of economic convenience (Bay area, Washington DC) The Riverfront will get an upgrade with Arch, City, River, it is reeaaaaally though to do any housing or development on the river in STL due to the Corp of Engineers, but… I can tell you, without giving anything away, there is some cool stuff coming, be patient.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Amercity
Also im not saying st.louis is bad but its not going anywhere.
Walkable neighborhoods in STL/near suburbs:
Wash Av
Laclede's Landing
Soulard
Central West End
Grand Center
The Loop
Lafayette Square
Benton Park
South Grand
Morganford
Downtown Clayton
Dogtown (Clayton-Tamm specifically)
The Grove
Downtown Maplewood
Old North St. Louis
Seriously, it's just not even close.
Also, don't forget -
Macklin Corridor, some great bars and restaurants, neighborhood businesses including HomeEco- http://www.home-eco.com/Home_Eco/Home.html one of my personal favorites
The Patch neighborhood in Carondelet, which is really up and coming with micro breweries and an odd mix of hipsters and south siders,
Bevo - Part southsider, part hipster, part Bosnian, all set in an old German neighborhood, keep a close eye on Bevo, it might be the next Cherokee
Cherokee st. Hipster and Mexican, and actual DIY organic arts neighborhood. Well on its way, and unique.
Downtown Dutchtown- Meremac st. is starting to get some buzz,
Midtown Alley- 10 years ago was a quiet post industrial corridor, today home to 2 music clubs about 10 bars and restaurants, loft apts, galleries and maybe the best mirobrewer in the US - http://urbanchestnut.com/home and is melded well with Grand Center
The Hill, with a deli, bar, trotoria, bakery, or grocer on every corner,
St. Louis Hills, which has a great selection of restaurants, neighborhood businesses, and and Urban Target that is easily walkable from with in the neighborhood and has underground parking.
And that is not even getting into suburban dowtowns, DT Kirkwood or Webster would classify as destination urban neighborhoods in many cities.
We already have what others are spending millions to try to recreate,
Look around, you are exactly where you want to be...
^I love all those suggestions -- and really, aragx6, forgetting the Hill? I should be ashamed of that one. Anyway, it's the strength of all these diverse neighborhoods that is the true difference maker between St. Louis and Kansas City. And, the resurgence of so many is the easiest thing to point to to show the city is certainly not stagnating. I have so enjoyed bringing my mom back to the city and really enjoying all it has to offer after watching her stagnate in St. Chuck for all these years.
I just like the culture of StL. I think the area acts and feels like one continuous metropolitan area and it just feels more "big city" to me, totally more my style.
KC is like a bunch of smaller towns and metros that happen to be near each other and the culture of the metro area reflects that as well.
KCMO's urban core from the river market to brookside and state line to 71 is the only interesting part of KC. The rest of metro KC could not be more "meh". I think StL is much more comprehensive I like the suburbs of StL a lot more than those in KC, except maybe Lee's Summit, but LS is a kind of separated from KC (again, I don't like how KC is all chopped up (how an ex girlfriend from StL described KC to me long ago).
As more and more of the kcmo economy migrates to the KS side and more and more of the metro's wealth moves to the KS side, the more fragmented and "chopped up" kc becomes and the less I like it as a whole. At least there is a possibility of StL City and County merging. Johnson County will always be much more of a competing metro to KCMO than a regional partner. StL County is a best budy to StL City compared to the KCMO/JoCo thing. KC can't even get a decent city bus line to cross the line from kcmo to joco without huge issues. The KC area is basically 3-4 small metros and the area has a lot of blight. I think it has more than STL does.
I also think StL has more thriving urban neighborhoods than KC and those it has are more mixed use.
Having said that, I really do think both metros are pretty comparable as far as amenities. However I still give StL the slight edge for having more and better urban universities, having the NHL, being a great baseball town and doing okay with the NFL (vs everybody following college teams that don't even play in the metro), having a great urban park (forest), light rail etc.
In the next five years. StL will get their IKEA, I think they will get an MLS team and I think Downtown StL will see an incredible amount of investment and attention.
I would also like to see StL expand metrorail and build a better bus system.
But overall, StL is more my thing. I think it's a great town and has a lot going for it.
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