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Our family is planning a move to the St. Louis area this summer 2009. I have learned so much about the area from this forum. Thank you! It sounds like a great place for families.
My husband will be working west of I270 but I believe we have settled on living in the Kirkwood area - we would like to live 'inside' I270. We don't want to be too far from St. Louis proper and we prefer a more urban feel to our neighborhood.
We are a multi-cultural family with two boys aged 5 & 8 so schools are a priority for us. We also want to live where we can walk and bike to explore the area. We are not set on Kirkwood since we have found that there are many excellent school districts in St. Louis County but the greater Kirkwood area looks pretty good from out here.
Any suggestions on areas to explore will be greatly appreciated. Of course, we would like to be sure to move to an area that welcomes newcomers, but from reading this forum it sounds like that won't be a problem.
Kirkwood is a highly desirable area for sure. Many middle and upper middle class families seem to gravitate towards the suburb of Kirkwood. I have even given it some consideration myself, as there seems to be more positive buzz about that suburb than perhaps any other in the metro area (for people looking in the $300-$500k range). I currently live in University City and I love it but we are thinking of moving to a different inner ring suburb with better schools, and Kirkwood definitely fits the bill. For several personal reasons, though, I have decided to nix Kirkwood from my short list, and before getting hate mail from the Kirkwoodians on this board let me preemptively say that I think it is a nice community with a cool downtown, beautiful housing stock, great schools, etc etc.
On the other hand, I have heard anecdotally from several native St. Louisans (which I am not) that Kirkwood can be somewhat cliquish, and can be difficult to penetrate socially if you are not from St. Louis. So maybe that's not such a big deal, but as someone who has moved around a good bit I find that description unappealing. Furthermore, and admittedly I am making sweeping generalizations which can get people into trouble, but some of the people I have met who are from Kirkwood seem a little bit narrow minded, and definitely very caucasian (I am caucasian myself, but have always held an affinity for diverse communities, if not very open minded ones).
Mind you these would not be deal killers in my mind-- its not like I believe the whole town is small minded and racist, its definitely not. It just strikes me as being slightly on the side of... lets say socially conservative.
Webster Groves is the next closest in suburb. It is known for being a little more mixed, the schools being not quite as high on test scores, but with the similar charm and small town feel of an inner-ring suburb. On the whole, housing is somewhat older in Webster than Kirkwood. Personally, if I were to choose from the two, I would probably go with Webster (and wind up getting a more run-down house for the same price, but being somewhat closer to the city).
Then you have Clayton, where $500k won't buy a very nice 3 bedroom house. Its urban in feel, most central, and cosmopolitan, and has beautiful old and new housing stock, but the prices can be pretty daunting. Most of the homes, even old ones there, are well maintained and updated. I know some people (snobby people) who say Clayton is the only public district one should send their kid to. Lots of doctors, lawyers, and professors. Mix of political views.
Ladue is just west of Clayton, and has bigger lots and a wider variety of homes in the school district (parts of Richmond Heights, Olivette, Creve Couer and Frontenac all feed into Ladue schools), but I think Ladue proper residents tend to be very affluent and, if I can generalize, republican. If you want to spend $5,000,000 or more on a house in the inner ring, Ladue is the place to be. Social elitism is probably a tough reality for the "poor" kids in Ladue schools (i.e., those whose parents earn less than $150k annually), but I am sure the vast majority get by happy, healthy, and into nice colleges.
I get a sense that, as outsiders, a nice part of Olivette or Creve Couer could be more welcoming than Kirkwood, because there are a larger percentage of professional transplants. This is all just one persons opinion.
Good luck, welcome to the Lou, and I hope you find the perfect spot for your family.
Our family is planning a move to the St. Louis area this summer 2009. I have learned so much about the area from this forum. Thank you! It sounds like a great place for families.
My husband will be working west of I270 but I believe we have settled on living in the Kirkwood area - we would like to live 'inside' I270. We don't want to be too far from St. Louis proper and we prefer a more urban feel to our neighborhood.
We are a multi-cultural family with two boys aged 5 & 8 so schools are a priority for us. We also want to live where we can walk and bike to explore the area. We are not set on Kirkwood since we have found that there are many excellent school districts in St. Louis County but the greater Kirkwood area looks pretty good from out here.
Any suggestions on areas to explore will be greatly appreciated. Of course, we would like to be sure to move to an area that welcomes newcomers, but from reading this forum it sounds like that won't be a problem.
Thank you!
Kirkwood is a good choice. It has a wide variety of income levels and housing. It has a rah rah Kirkwood community spirit in attitude, small town feel, and walkable areas. St. Louis doesn't have a lot of walkable burbs, and that's one of Kirkwood's sell points. It has a lot of older 1800's Victorians, to go along with more modern post war homes to go along with tear downs, etc...you name it. It's very family oriented. Some people aren't as interested in the older homes, or the rah rah spirit and find it a bit over the top, but most are fans of it. it has a central location to get just about anywhere in a reasonable amount of time.
Thank you for the responses to my questions. I keep sifting through the info I can gather.
One thing is still confusing. Using internet search engines to look at homes in the Kirkwood area there seem to be lots of nice ones that are 3B/2BA in the 300K range, versus the 500K range mentioned in one of the responses. Am I missing something?
Sure, there are plenty of nice 3BR/2ba homes in Kirkwood schools in the $300K range. You can also find them under $300K, but they will be smaller and older and in less "desirable" areas within the district. The Kirkwood district covers a lot of different housing stock with various prices to match. The median home price sold in the past 12 months in the district was $228,000 so you definitely do not need to spend $500K to purchase a house there:
This list also shows the median home prices for all the other districts to give you some perspective. Looking at them sorted by median price (upper left corner of the page), you will see Kirkwood ends up #5, after Clayton ($468K), Ladue ($430K), Rockwood ($275K), and Parkway ($230K, essentially the same as Kirkwood's median price.)
Depends on the part of Kirkwood. You can definitely find 3 bd 2 ba homes for $300 in Kirkwood city limits, but I would guess that falls below the median sales price there. There are others on this site who are more familiar with Kirkwood, but I would say the most desirable parts for you, given that you want walkable, might be within a half mile radius of Kirkwood's downtown (if you map the intersetion of Argonne and S Kirkwood Rd, that is sort of like the center of the downtown district there). For pedestrian friendly, walkabale Kirkwood, that's about where you'd want to be. You might be able to find something with 3bed/2bath for $300 or less in that part of town, but selection would be very slim indeed. Kirkwood also has some low income areas-- the Meacham Park neighborhood, for example, gets a pretty bad rap, and that's roughly the triangle between Kirkwood Rd, Big Bend, and I-44.
This is all great information. Thanks so much for the replies. It really is difficult to do this from so far away, even using the internet, so all of these 'in situ' observations are very valuable. :-)
We have been looking at homes in Des Peres as well if they are in the Kirwood school district (Westchester Elementary School). I also took a closer look at Webster Groves and St. Louis Hills after reviewing some forum topics from last year.
The average/median sales price for a 3 bed/2 bath house for Kirkwood is higher than what's been quoted. The stats below are based on SALES only for the past six months (which reflects the market slowdown).
Bedrooms Bathrooms Sq Ft List Price Selling Price
Minimum 3 2.00 906 $160,000 $140,000
Average 3 2.14 1,644 $268,762 $255,973
Median 3 2.00 1,540 $259,000 $245,000
Maximum 3 2.50 2,555 $389,900 $374,500
However if you just look at the top 50% of homes sold you get much higher stats:
Average 3 2.28 1,983 $355,691 $337,827
Median 3 2.50 1,791 $343,500 $330,250
That's Kirkwood! Pricing doesn't follow patterns as everything is driven by location, location, location.
I do not agree with the concept that Kirkwood is hard for "outsiders". I move lots of out of town buyers (including 3 from California during 2008) into the area every year and they love it. I moved here about 15 years ago and didn't know a soul. Within weeks I was great friends with all of my neighbors and felt more a part of the community then anywhere I had ever lived. I happened to grow up in west county (moved away for a number of years and came back) but didn't know anyone in Kirkwood when I moved here. I have lived in Glendale, Kirkwood and Webster and love them all. They are very similar but each has it's own unique traits, personality and style.
The area has plenty of diversity. Much more so than many other part of central or west county. And that is true for income, religion, race, etc. There's a little bit of everything. It's also the most walking friendly community in St. Louis and has some of the finest architecture. I must admit that I've become one of those rah rah fans of the area as it's hard not to do that when you live here for any length of time. It's just one of the most friendly, hometown type places you'll ever find and personally I think it speaks volumes when a community "loves" itself. There is usually a reason. Some of my friends from childhood who still live out west can't understand why I am willing to pay such a premium to live here as they get much more house for their money. They really would never understand unless they lived here a while. I do, but when I was growing up in west county I had no idea what I was missing.
Pricing can be difficult to decipher when you are from out of town as the values vary signficiantly from street to street even for a very similar home. Just make sure you do your home work or be sure you work with an agent who knows the area VERY well. It's not like other communities as there are not standard rules for pricing. You simply have to know the history and inventory to understand if a home is priced right.
Anyway, I think your family would love it here. I've never known anyone who didn't like the Webster and/or Kirkwood areas.
Obviously you have been doing some research online but if you want a quick snap shot of all the homes currently available (Between $300-$500K) you can take a peek at this link: Client Portal (http://tinyurl.com/b87798 - broken link) (please note there are multiple pages of listings). You don't need to login or anything, you can just scroll through the details.
Anyway, as an agent who lives here, and has sold here almost exclusively for the past 11 years my comments come from education and experience, not just opinions. (maybe I should just become an ambassador for the Webster or Kirkwood chamber). Just come visit and have someone that knows the area give you a real "insiders" tour and you'll quickly be able to make up your own mind! And make sure to visit the Kirkwood Farmer's Market (opens in April) and Station Plaza (when the bands are playing live) as I think you'll be convinced.
I hate suburbs. All suburbs. But if, in the future, I can't get my kid into one of the good magnets there are a few suburbs I would consider -- Kirkwood, Webster Groves, Maplewood, Shrewsbury, Richmond Heights, Clayton.
I suspect, given what you've said about yourself and what you;re looking for, that you could be happy in any of those burbs, though my personal favorite is Webster Groves.
If you find prices a little too high in those areas, I often suggest Rock Hill as a suitable alternative. The area maintains the inner-ring feel, the kids go to Webster schools and its semi-walkable -- it just lacks the central downtown-type area of Kirkwood or Webster Groves.
There are a couple of other suburbs I like, but the schools aren't good enough to make it worth leaving the city -- University City and Florissant.
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