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Many of you are clearly smarter than I'll ever be, but all I wanted was an easy answer:
For ordinary problems, is glucosamine with MSM materially different than glucosamine with chondroitin, and, if so, how? Is one better than the other?
There is no easy answer. These supplements are for osteoarthritis. MSM is materially different than chondroitin. I've had people tell me they find different supplements a miracle cure. It won't hurt to try different combinations or add a supplement like MSM to the others.
Quote:
Originally Posted by guidoLaMoto
The only correct answer to your question is "Nobody knows."
The problem with evaluating treatments where the end point is pain relief is that the psyche always dominates. Placebo effect cannot be ignored.
As I said in my earlier post, at least there has been objective proof of joint changes in horses with use of chondo-/GA. I don't know about the MSM.
Be your own guinea pig-- try it with and without, then you tell us.
The only correct answer to your question is "Nobody knows."
The problem with evaluating treatments where the end point is pain relief is that the psyche always dominates. Placebo effect cannot be ignored.
As I said in my earlier post, at least there has been objective proof of joint changes in horses with use of chondo-/GA. I don't know about the MSM.
Be your own guinea pig-- try it with and without, then you tell us.
I must have made a botch of explaining my experience and research about supplements and osteoarthritis. The comments that 'nobody knows' is not quite true. I have provided about a dozen references associating osteoarthritis with poor circulation to joints, whilst acknowledging that random controlled experiments have shown significant degrees of improvements for dozens of supplements based not simply on pain but on broader scoring methods. Two of these are the WOMAN scale and the DOYLE scale. There must be a dozen such papers on the use of BORON alone (3 mg per day). You can check it out on Google Scholar
MSM and chondroitin are just two others of many supplements that give the same temporary results. It becomes an academic exercise as to whether you use either or both, because the effects are not permanent. I had tried every supplement ever recommended for osteoarthritis, including folk lore remedies with no long term effect.
I have provided evidence that vitamin K deficiencies are associated with osteoarthritis and provided the results of a 2020 trial that was promising -- Laio et al (2020; https://www.oarsijournal.com/article...836-0/abstract) reported on 213 patients with symptomatic knee OA and low 25-hydroxyvitamin D (12.5-60 nmol/L) who finished the study and who were enrolled and randomly assigned to receive monthly treatment with oral 50000 IU vitamin D3 or an identical placebo for 2 years. Their dietary vitamin K intakes were evaluated, and they were classified as 'high' if above 112 micrograms a day on average or 'low' if below that average. Their baseline WOMAC scores for arthritis were assessed at baseline and after 24 months. The 'high' vitamin K with sufficient vitamin D groups showed significant improvements over their baseline figures for Womac scores in 'Total Score', 'Pain Score', 'Function Score', and approached significance in 'Stiffness Score'.
I would regard the daily vitamin K of 112 micrograms as 'low' in this trial. This was a rare trial in that vitamin D status was established as satisfactory in one group.
I have been taking 500 micrograms each of vitamin K1 and vitamin K2 daily for about 7 years now and no longer have to use crutches because of arthritis in my right ankle. It costs about 30 cents a day. Prior to that I tried every supplement ever recommended.
It stopped the arthritis in its tracks in my left wrist and back joints as well. All these joints are FUNCTIONAL. It does not restore structural changes such as collapsed joints and osteophytes, but it obviously restores function, if the structural changes are not too severe. I have NO pain from those old affected joints.
I must have made a botch of explaining my experience and research about supplements and osteoarthritis. The comments that 'nobody knows' is not quite true. I have provided about a dozen references associating osteoarthritis with poor circulation to joints, whilst acknowledging that random controlled experiments have shown significant degrees of improvements for dozens of supplements based not simply on pain but on broader scoring methods. Two of these are the WOMAN scale and the DOYLE scale. There must be a dozen such papers on the use of BORON alone (3 mg per day). You can check it out on Google Scholar
MSM and chondroitin are just two others of many supplements that give the same temporary results. It becomes an academic exercise as to whether you use either or both, because the effects are not permanent. I had tried every supplement ever recommended for osteoarthritis, including folk lore remedies with no long term effect.
I have provided evidence that vitamin K deficiencies are associated with osteoarthritis and provided the results of a 2020 trial that was promising -- Laio et al (2020; https://www.oarsijournal.com/article...836-0/abstract) reported on 213 patients with symptomatic knee OA and low 25-hydroxyvitamin D (12.5-60 nmol/L) who finished the study and who were enrolled and randomly assigned to receive monthly treatment with oral 50000 IU vitamin D3 or an identical placebo for 2 years. Their dietary vitamin K intakes were evaluated, and they were classified as 'high' if above 112 micrograms a day on average or 'low' if below that average. Their baseline WOMAC scores for arthritis were assessed at baseline and after 24 months. The 'high' vitamin K with sufficient vitamin D groups showed significant improvements over their baseline figures for Womac scores in 'Total Score', 'Pain Score', 'Function Score', and approached significance in 'Stiffness Score'.
I would regard the daily vitamin K of 112 micrograms as 'low' in this trial. This was a rare trial in that vitamin D status was established as satisfactory in one group.
I have been taking 500 micrograms each of vitamin K1 and vitamin K2 daily for about 7 years now and no longer have to use crutches because of arthritis in my right ankle. It costs about 30 cents a day. Prior to that I tried every supplement ever recommended.
It stopped the arthritis in its tracks in my left wrist and back joints as well. All these joints are FUNCTIONAL. It does not restore structural changes such as collapsed joints and osteophytes, but it obviously restores function, if the structural changes are not too severe. I have NO pain from those old affected joints.
Interesting post! What brand of vitamin K1 and K2 are you taking? Are you also taking boron?
I took 3 mg of boron daily for 12 months because the literature sounded encouraging. It had NO effect on the progress of my ankle osteoarthritis. Nor did any of the other supplements that were available.
I had to use crutches to get around on the ankle, and the osteophyte had reached about one inch in size. The ankle was painful on weight-bearing and the osteophyte was being rubbed raw by my footwear. I was heading for a wheelchair.
I reviewed hundreds of research papers on osteoarthritis and atherosclerosis. In an earlier post I listed a number of the papers that linked poor circulation (atherosclerosis) and low vitamin K status to osteoarthritis.
I finished up deciding that the amounts used in trials to date were too low, and I settled quite arbitrarily on 500 micrograms each of vitamin K1 and K2 a day. I used 'Superior Source Vitamin K2 MK4 500 mcg microlingual' for my vitamin K2 and 'SOURCE NATURALS vitamin K 500 MCG 200 TABLETS' for my vitamin K1. It doesn't say K1 on the pack but it is K1. The vitamin K2 has a sublingual capacity. I used the sublingual tablet because we get most of our vitamin K2 from gut bacteria, and I questioned whether I may have been knocking out some of these bacteria with the alcohol that I drink.
That's a personal thing. And because no trials have been conducted yet with a high enough doses, I was covering all bases.
The last time I looked at the products available, I noticed a new one that I'll be trying out. It's a brand called 'Life Extension" and it contains 1500 micrograms of vitamin K1, 1000 micrograms of vitamin K2-MK4, and 100 micrograms of vitamin K2-MK7. One tablet every second day should be plenty. As I've said a couple of times, vitamin K works by activating raw proteins that are formed by vitamin D, so it is important to get plenty of sunlight or adequate vitamin D.
We are born without vitamin K and mother's milk contains very little. We depend on gut bacteria for vitamin K2 and food for vitamin K1. But two researchers claim that there is just not enough in western diets to maintain a healthy lifestyle.
Other research shows that the vitamin Ks are amongst the safest substances on the planet. I would use more, but I'm personally aware that if you use too high a dose of anything that it may throw other substances out of balance. 500 micrograms of each has been enough to keep me mobile without crutches for the last 7 years.
I get my supplies online because none of the pharmacists in my part of the world market any product containing more than 180 micrograms.
I took 3 mg of boron daily for 12 months because the literature sounded encouraging. It had NO effect on the progress of my ankle osteoarthritis. Nor did any of the other supplements that were available.
I had to use crutches to get around on the ankle, and the osteophyte had reached about one inch in size. The ankle was painful on weight-bearing and the osteophyte was being rubbed raw by my footwear. I was heading for a wheelchair.
I reviewed hundreds of research papers on osteoarthritis and atherosclerosis. In an earlier post I listed a number of the papers that linked poor circulation (atherosclerosis) and low vitamin K status to osteoarthritis.
I finished up deciding that the amounts used in trials to date were too low, and I settled quite arbitrarily on 500 micrograms each of vitamin K1 and K2 a day. I used 'Superior Source Vitamin K2 MK4 500 mcg microlingual' for my vitamin K2 and 'SOURCE NATURALS vitamin K 500 MCG 200 TABLETS' for my vitamin K1. It doesn't say K1 on the pack but it is K1. The vitamin K2 has a sublingual capacity. I used the sublingual tablet because we get most of our vitamin K2 from gut bacteria, and I questioned whether I may have been knocking out some of these bacteria with the alcohol that I drink.
That's a personal thing. And because no trials have been conducted yet with a high enough doses, I was covering all bases.
The last time I looked at the products available, I noticed a new one that I'll be trying out. It's a brand called 'Life Extension" and it contains 1500 micrograms of vitamin K1, 1000 micrograms of vitamin K2-MK4, and 100 micrograms of vitamin K2-MK7. One tablet every second day should be plenty. As I've said a couple of times, vitamin K works by activating raw proteins that are formed by vitamin D, so it is important to get plenty of sunlight or adequate vitamin D.
We are born without vitamin K and mother's milk contains very little. We depend on gut bacteria for vitamin K2 and food for vitamin K1. But two researchers claim that there is just not enough in western diets to maintain a healthy lifestyle.
Other research shows that the vitamin Ks are amongst the safest substances on the planet. I would use more, but I'm personally aware that if you use too high a dose of anything that it may throw other substances out of balance. 500 micrograms of each has been enough to keep me mobile without crutches for the last 7 years.
I get my supplies online because none of the pharmacists in my part of the world market any product containing more than 180 micrograms.
Thanks, it looks like this is the Life Extension Super K w/ Advanced K2 product.
Yes VI. That's the one I had in mind. One capsule every second day should be plenty.
I should point out that the official daily recommended dose of vitamin Ks is about 1 microgram per kg body weight. But this was assessed on the amount necessary for effective blood clotting. Not many health professionals are aware that vitamin K also activates a couple of anti-coagulents as well -- Proteins C, S and Z -- so that it should be regarded as a blood clotting regulator rather than a blood clotting agent.
But blood clotting is only a minor role. It is essential for brain function and development, but it's main role is in the maintenance of the health of arteries. Somebody, (can supply reference), calculated that if we laid our blood vessels end to end, we would have thousands of kilometres. So we need plenty of vitamin K. The LD50 of vitamin K could not be determined in 1940 because they were unable to kill a rat with a dose of vitamin K1 of 25,000,000 micrograms (25 g) per kg body weight.
As far as bones are concerned, vitamin D only transports calcium and produces the raw proteins that need to be activated by vitamin K to deposit it in bones.
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