Woman with brick lawn faces thousands in fines....not by the HOA! (Tampa: homes, landscaping)

[frankiea68]

Well, no, Mike. You are mistaken. The constitution is the law of the land and supersedes all local building codes. She bought it. It is her property. She has a right to do with it as she pleases so long as it does not affect others.

I do not like a lot of what people do, but I value the freedom of choice. It is a freedom squeezed left and right from people who want others to fall in line with their beliefs...until someone tells you to do something you feel is unfair. Then you will realize that it all started with silly little things like this.

Pavers do not affect others. If you want to make the silly case that rain water runs off and overlook the industrial scale pollution that occurs elsewhere, then it still is a shallow argument. That little bit of water pales in comparison to the millions of gallons pumped into the gulf from the high rise apt and condo complexes on the beach. Besides, she can put in place a rain water collection system- barrels or something more attractive.

You only have a water shortage because your tax dollars are mis-spent and do not serve community needs. There is a whole gulf of water. There is no shortage. But you do not collect any of the 50+ inches of fresh rain water that falls on every square foot of the county. And you do not have the capacity to filter the amount you need. Those are leadership failures. There is plenty of water to go around if you do not just let it run down the drain!

[Marlin331]

Originally Posted by frankiea68

The constitution is the law of the land and supersedes all local building codes.

No. Supreme Court cases have validated local imposition of zoning regulations and building codes.

This doesn't seem to have much relevance in the case at hand, but home owners' associations may impose even further restrictions, given that their original board members are elected to their positions and then vote to impose certain covenants - covenants which are imposed on all properties within the area the association covers. Those covenants are binding to the land, and any new buyers are bound by them regardless of the fact that they did not participate in the original elections which produced the board that imposed the covenants in the first place. These buyers buy into a neighborhood knowing very well of the existence of an HOA and its publically-published covenants; if they have a problem with those covenants, they should choose not to live within the boundaries the association covers.

The US Constitution protects a lot of personal freedoms, but it is not always an end-all, be-all defense to any restriction of those freedoms.

[Mike1306]

Originally Posted by frankiea68

Well, no, Mike. You are mistaken. The constitution is the law of the land and supersedes all local building codes. She bought it. It is her property. She has a right to do with it as she pleases so long as it does not affect others.

I do not like a lot of what people do, but I value the freedom of choice. It is a freedom squeezed left and right from people who want others to fall in line with their beliefs...until someone tells you to do something you feel is unfair. Then you will realize that it all started with silly little things like this.

Pavers do not affect others. If you want to make the silly case that rain water runs off and overlook the industrial scale pollution that occurs elsewhere, then it still is a shallow argument. That little bit of water pales in comparison to the millions of gallons pumped into the gulf from the high rise apt and condo complexes on the beach. Besides, she can put in place a rain water collection system- barrels or something more attractive.

You only have a water shortage because your tax dollars are mis-spent and do not serve community needs. There is a whole gulf of water. There is no shortage. But you do not collect any of the 50+ inches of fresh rain water that falls on every square foot of the county. And you do not have the capacity to filter the amount you need. Those are leadership failures. There is plenty of water to go around if you do not just let it run down the drain!

I really don't see how the Constitution got into this but since you brought it up.

The Constitution may be the supreme law of The United States but in it was Article 4 which outlined states powers. The states then give power to cities, counties and other municipalities.

Regulating building codes is a power given to the municipalities, some is regulated by the state and some by the smaller government entities.

If someone has a problem with building codes in their municpality they can attempt to have them changed. While I do not agree with all building codes, most are in place for the better good of the majority of the citizens.

This woman had 8 months to go pay for the permit and she probably would have had no problem from then on. She chose to ignore the notices and was then fined.

You go on to bring up industrial pollution as if it has any bearing on this. And what millions of gallons are being pumped into the gulf from high rises? Are they just keeping a hose open and letting it run day and night?

We could go back and forth on government waste, desalinization plants, high output reverse osmosis but it has absolutely noting to do with the woman not pulling a permit to lay pavers on her lawn.

[stpeteguy]

Originally Posted by Mike Peterson

I really don't see how the Constitution got into this but since you brought it up.

The Constitution may be the supreme law of The United States but in it was Article 4 which outlined states powers. The states then give power to cities, counties and other municipalities.

Regulating building codes is a power given to the municipalities, some is regulated by the state and some by the smaller government entities.

If someone has a problem with building codes in their municpality they can attempt to have them changed. While I do not agree with all building codes, most are in place for the better good of the majority of the citizens.

This woman had 8 months to go pay for the permit and she probably would have had no problem from then on. She chose to ignore the notices and was then fined.

You go on to bring up industrial pollution as if it has any bearing on this. And what millions of gallons are being pumped into the gulf from high rises? Are they just keeping a hose open and letting it run day and night?

We could go back and forth on government waste, desalinization plants, high output reverse osmosis but it has absolutely noting to do with the woman not pulling a permit to lay pavers on her lawn.

If ye love wealth greater than liberty, the tranquility of servitude
greater than the animating contest for freedom, go home from us
in peace. We seek not your counsel, nor your arms. Crouch down
and lick the hand that feeds you; May your chains set lightly upon
you, and may posterity forget that ye were our countrymen.

—Samuel Adams

[frankiea68]

Well, you are right in implying that there is a limit to how far off topic we want to go in this forum for this topic. I respectfully disagree completely with your last sentance regarding government waste and the overstretched reach of government. When you give up your rights, it is not the good that should be your focus, it is its misuse that should scare you. If a community deems it ok to cover your property so long as the rain water is collected and recycled through the water collection system for filtering, then pass a community regulation saying as much and save everyone the hassles. That is not what is happening.

This is my main point: there is a difference between a community based decision and one dictated by formal government. And that difference is that when the government dictates terms, such as regarding medical coverage and the cost to you to receive treatment, this matter, or any other, there is no body to appeal and enforce equal treatment to all. History is littered with examples of how this ends badly over time for everyone by the soon to be if not already corrupted decision makers. And I think you will find out in your lifetime what I mean at the pace we are going.

I believe the woman had every right to do what she wants with her property so long as it does not affect others. To the extent she did so, I support her. To the extent she does not yet a bigger abuse of a similar manner sits unattended, I support her. If she were the biggest culprit out there and the little bit of rainwater negatively affected the community, I would not support her. But she is not the biggest offender and the issue could be legislated clearly to save everyone time and hassles.

You will understand what I mean one day when something important is dictated against you, and you have no appeal. What if the zoning board said no? And you are stuck with a person who can not upkeep her property and is not allowed to remedy her situation in a manner that most people support. Should she be allowed to lose her savings and property based on the whims of some unelected "board"? Again, the good is easy to support, but it is the horrible effects of its abuse that should pause you for careful consideration. This is a small example affecting a couple people. But history is littered with examples of what happens when people have arbitrary control over others lives. Subjective power is corruptive and always ends badly. You will see...not from this example but there are plenty of others out there that will have a more significant impact on your quality of life in time.

I support her. And the government needs to do the big things right before I support them meddling in these minor matters.

[frankiea68]

well said st pete guy. his head will be spinning one day when he wakes up and realizes he is nothing more than a slave. When your tax bill reaches 50% of your income...you are a slave. dont believe me...dont pay your taxes and see what happens!

[Mike1306]

Originally Posted by stpeteguy

If ye love wealth greater than liberty, the tranquility of servitude
greater than the animating contest for freedom, go home from us
in peace. We seek not your counsel, nor your arms. Crouch down
and lick the hand that feeds you; May your chains set lightly upon
you, and may posterity forget that ye were our countrymen.

—Samuel Adams

Woo hoo, you can post quotes.

Does not realate at all to the subject at hand though.

[bentlebee]

It is so funny...many want government run health care, government bail outs, etc...guess what!

I lived in a soc. country and what this woman did, can't be done in a government run country...they decide what you can do and what not...so to all who love Obama and his plans but hate government ruling things...and hate HOA's...

You get the government instead and they tell you what you can and can't do...you get government employees who are lazy, drink coffee rather than do anything else...since they make the same money if they really work or not, so why should they care...and the "most fun" part for them is...they have the feeling they are in charge and that gives them a good feeling of power over the people, which they won't have when they go home and have to deal with their husbands or wifes so what better thing do they have to do than tell others what to do!

Think twice ...if you hate applying for a permit and hate HOA's, how much will you hate having the government telling you who your doctor is, if you can get a MRI, and than waiting and waiting.....

[Mike1306]

I love how this thread evolved from a woman not pulling a permit and getting fined to a great government conspiracy to take over our entire lives.

[TampaKaren]

I personally think a whole lawn covered with pavers is ugly. They have their place in decorative landscaping, but the whole thing? I would not want that next to my house.