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I think the issue is not who is responsible for the low grades, lack of interest, etc.. It is about finding solutions to this mess.
Yes it is. However, what is the right solution? Someone will lose. Either you're cheating the kids who do their work and turn it in on time when you slow down the class to accomodate less motivated students, or you blow away the kids who didn't keep up. If you allow one student extra time or a second chance, what message did you just send to the kid who did his work right the first time?
Total, absolute rubbish. I'm sorry that you cannot tell the difference between a few bad teachers and the vast majority of educators.
On the off chance that these anecdotes of yours aren't ginned up or exaggerated wholesale, I'll say this: Bad and abusive educators must be removed immediately.
But this apparent belief of yours that, on the first day of class, the educator has to earn the respect of the student is pure drivel. If the teacher does not have the immediate respect on the very first day of class, then the rest of the year will be total chaos. My children have had a few mediocre teachers during their academic careers. But do you think I would allow my children to do anything less than to cheerfully do their assignments or behave in the classroom? Hell no.
Children are, in no way, shape, or form, the social equivalent of adults. Yes, children should, of course, begin their relationship with a fundamental degree of respect from the teacher. But the teacher runs the classroom without question. It is not a democracy. It is not a popularity contest. It is not egalitarian.
Otherwise you have a bunch of entitled brats running the classroom. Evidently, that's perfectly okay with you.
This is the only place where I can be open and honest and give my personal experience and stories from the inside of a school. I am upset about the anecdote comment. Why so angry? I happen to agree with most of what you say about structure but this is my opinion on respect. I love kids and they love me and respect comes in handy.
Total, absolute rubbish. I'm sorry that you cannot tell the difference between a few bad teachers and the vast majority of educators.
On the off chance that these anecdotes of yours aren't ginned up or exaggerated wholesale, I'll say this: Bad and abusive educators must be removed immediately.
But this apparent belief of yours that, on the first day of class, the educator has to earn the respect of the student is pure drivel. If the teacher does not have the immediate respect on the very first day of class, then the rest of the year will be total chaos. My children have had a few mediocre teachers during their academic careers. But do you think I would allow my children to do anything less than to cheerfully do their assignments or behave in the classroom? Hell no.
Children are, in no way, shape, or form, the social equivalent of adults. Yes, children should, of course, begin their relationship with a fundamental degree of respect from the teacher. But the teacher runs the classroom without question. It is not a democracy. It is not a popularity contest. It is not egalitarian.
Otherwise you have a bunch of entitled brats running the classroom. Evidently, that's perfectly okay with you.
I agree. If a teacher doesn't have the respect of their students from day one, the year is lost. I have multiple students who are determined to show I don't deserve respect because, according to them, I don't respect them (Translation, I ask them to do things they don't want to, expect them to follow instructions and won't allow them to argue with me about it. It's an uphill battle and all I can do is stand my ground. I am, after all the one they put in charge of the classroom for a reason. If students were meant to be in charge they would be.) Unfortunately, as soon as one student treats the teacher disrespectfully, there are others who gain the courage to do so who follow in their footsteps. The difference between my classes where I don't have students who disrespect me and those where I do is amazing. Teaching is fun in the classes where I'm respected. It's a PITA in the ones where I'm not.
I suppose I should be glad that the disrespectful students are in two of my six classes and not spread through all of them. I have two types. One lower level class where there are two, openly disrespectful students who have three followers who will create a disturbance when I challenge their heros. I've sent up to four students in a day to in house in this class. The other one is the class I thought would be my best class. It has a disproportionate number of honors students. What I get is eye rolling when I lecture. Questions about WHY do we need to learn this. Off topic questions designed to derail the lecture. Contrast to my other class at this level which has a more typical blend of students who may ask what they'll use this for but never question why they need to learn it, who ask questions having to do with the subject and rarely ones off topic (I'm more willing to go off topic with them because of it)...guess which class out scored the other by 5% on the last test? I'm stunned. My honors kids, who don't take notes, roll thier eyes and act like the subject matter is beneath them can't keep up with a class of students who should be well beneath them. I guess there's something to be said for putting in effort.
The news is full of stories recently about how terrible the schools are in America and how we are slipping behind the rest of the world. Of course the group that gets the most blame is the teachers. The second amount of blame goes to the Principal and the rest of the blame goes towards the school administrators and bureaucrats.
If a failing school in the worst neighborhood in the City does not do as well as the school in a rich suburb with parents who are doctors, lawyers, and scientists with high IQ's and PHD's, then the failing school's Teachers and Principal are fired.
Why won't the media admit the problem with American schools are: uninterested parents, a messed up popular culture and students who are more interested in acting out than learning?
Do you think the Teachers and Principals should get most of the blame for the problems in American Schools?
The greatest portion of tax payers dollars go to their salaries so why not? If there is nothing they can do why pay them so much if at all.
Yes it is. However, what is the right solution? Someone will lose. Either you're cheating the kids who do their work and turn it in on time when you slow down the class to accomodate less motivated students, or you blow away the kids who didn't keep up. If you allow one student extra time or a second chance, what message did you just send to the kid who did his work right the first time?
I do things like this all the time. Here's one example:
I teach an AP class that has a lot of regular-level students. Every test has a "shadow set" of problems that mimics the original test, with similar problems yet different ones.
If a student scores D or F on a test, they may complete the shadow set problems equivalent to the problems they missed and improve their grade to a C. C students may improve to a B or B-minus. But a student cannot improve to a B+ or better with the shadow set; I make it very clear to them that they must earn the higher grades on the original test.
Many teachers are rigid with their grading, thinking that their assignments and tests are sacred. All they are is a way for the student to engage their mind in what the teacher expects of them. And if they can engage their minds with some extra work if they are willing to do it, even with some help, I find that most of these students are achieving at a significantly higher level by the end of the school year than they were at the beginning.
I do things like this all the time. Here's one example:
I teach an AP class that has a lot of regular-level students. Every test has a "shadow set" of problems that mimics the original test, with similar problems yet different ones.
If a student scores D or F on a test, they may complete the shadow set problems equivalent to the problems they missed and improve their grade to a C. C students may improve to a B or B-minus. But a student cannot improve to a B+ or better with the shadow set; I make it very clear to them that they must earn the higher grades on the original test.
Many teachers are rigid with their grading, thinking that their assignments and tests are sacred. All they are is a way for the student to engage their mind in what the teacher expects of them. And if they can engage their minds with some extra work if they are willing to do it, even with some help, I find that most of these students are achieving at a significantly higher level by the end of the school year than they were at the beginning.
I allow retakes on tests but the maximum score on the retake is a 75%. I don't allow improvements into the A or B range on a retake. That's my compromise. I'll get you to passing even if it takes you six tries but you're not getting an A or B out of me. Even with this, I hear complaints out of the kids who got A's and B's the first time. They feel it dminishes what they accomplished.
I allow retakes on tests but the maximum score on the retake is a 75%. I don't allow improvements into the A or B range on a retake. That's my compromise. I'll get you to passing even if it takes you six tries but you're not getting an A or B out of me. Even with this, I hear complaints out of the kids who got A's and B's the first time. They feel it dminishes what they accomplished.
I hear complaints, but here's where I've got an advantage teaching an AP class: It's easier to sell the value of the work needed to get an A when you convince them that the AP test doesn't do retakes, and that I'm compromising their chances of college credit if I have a system where they can get an A without an honest test score.
But seriously, that has always been my policy, and sure...you're going to get a few grumblers. Except in my at-risk classes; to many of them whatever they can do with the least amount of work is good enough whether it's an A or a D-minus. Can't say that I like their attitude, but I learned a long time ago that scolding them for something like this gets you nowhere.
I hear complaints, but here's where I've got an advantage teaching an AP class: It's easier to sell the value of the work needed to get an A when you convince them that the AP test doesn't do retakes, and that I'm compromising their chances of college credit if I have a system where they can get an A without an honest test score.
But seriously, that has always been my policy, and sure...you're going to get a few grumblers. Except in my at-risk classes; to many of them whatever they can do with the least amount of work is good enough whether it's an A or a D-minus. Can't say that I like their attitude, but I learned a long time ago that scolding them for something like this gets you nowhere.
If I taught AP, I'd do the same. If I didn't offer retakes, I'd flunk 1/3 of my students. Even with retakes, it's evident that most of them don't actually study the second time either. They get it in their head that since they're taking the same test (same questions), they'll pass it the second time. It's not unusual for me to see worse scores on the retake. Just shy of half of them will do better and get a grade replacement. Every once in a while a student will do really good on the retake and I'll feel bad, for a moment , over my policy that the maximum grade is a C on a retake.
For the most part, the retakes (like extra credit which only the kids who don't need it seem to do ), don't make a difference between passing and failing.
I'd love to say your grade is your grade simply because college doesn't offer retakes. I think it's a rude awakening to go to college and, suddenly, no one helps you pass but you. So, for AP, I wouldn't do a retake for grade replacement. I'd use the same argument you do. The AP exam doesn't do retakes so get used to it.
I don't buy the argument that students don't think you respect them because you challenge them to do more than they think they can do. I taught middle school, and had the respect of most all my students. I asked them to do things far above their level and they produced.
That being said, the topic is the reason behind school failure. We got a principal from an affluent district who thought the teachers were the reason they scored so high. He immediately threw out all the improvements and programs our previous principal had implemented and put in place the things they did @ his previous school. No surprise, our test scores plummeted.
The kids would come to us in sixth grade - many of them reading well below grade level and others unable to read at all - and leave at the end of eighth grade two full stanines and several grade levels higher than they arrived. We did it through intervention programs that worked. Now you tell me, if all that changed was our interventions, is it the teachers or the program???
It would be great if all kids came to our schools at the same level, but the fact is, they don't. If you watched the movie Blindside and found yourself wanting to scream "So TEACH him, it's your job" at the screen when the teachers were moaning about Michael's not being able to read, then you know what we were dealing with @ our school. Michael on the Blindside had an expensive tutor, out of the question for most of our students, but we had some great intervention programs and some great teachers to implement them. Our new principal didn't quite understand how far behind our incoming 6th graders were compared to his previous school, which is why he stupidly decided to dump our interventions. Three years later, the district dumped him.
Our school isn't the only one who has found that intervention programs make a difference. Schools like Lake Hamilton in Arkansas have used inexpensive intervention programs like Turning a New Page to turn their test scores around in less than one grading period. Turning a New Page is on Facebook, as are many more intervention programs. (That one is the most affordable and quickest IMHO) In any case, it's been my experience that once the students have the TOOLS to be successful, the discipline issues go away and grade level (or above) learning takes place. Imagine that!
It's about 50-50 (e.g., 50% the kids, 50% the teachers).
My kids all do well in school mainly because my wife and I push them to.
I don't think you're giving yourself enough credit with the 50% kids, 50% teachers. As you later said in your post, all of your kids do well in school mainly because you and your wife push them.
Now, I don't know about percentages. I ventured a guess in a post a while ago which I care not to look up just to keep consistency. However, I think parents play a huge role in their child's success. If a parent raises a child to value education, he or she will be more independently invested in it.
Then again, if a teacher tries to call home about a student's behavior and the parent never picks up, it's sending two messages to the kid. My parents don't care what I do in school and I can do whatever I want with no ultimate consequences.
I'm not saying it's all on the parents. Of course, it's unrealistic to expect all students to be self-driven. It's also the teacher's job to buy the kids, to interest them (**I have a story on this which I'm very proud of... but it's off topic so I'll add it at the end of the post). Effective teaching can diminish all kinds of unwanted things in a classroom (bored, unmotivated students, behavior issues, etc.)
And, of course, the students play a role as well. No matter how much a parent and teacher talk to the student, it's really his decision as to whether or not tries in school.
**This isn't entirely related but is a story for how I "bought" one of my kids. One of my students, a bright little girl, always came into my math class very flat. She wasn't a high energy kid nor did she seem to care much for learning (I caught her sleeping on ocassion).
However, one day, after an after-school club, her mom was late to pick her up. I mean, she was REALLY late (20 minutes without being able to reach her). Now, she wasn't in my after school club but she is my math student, so I hung out with her and the host of the club. After we realized that the mom was just on her way to the school (they live about 20 minutes away), I thought 'Man, I'm hungry. ... Man, everyone must be hungry.' So I told the two that I was going to run to grab some food and asked if either of them wanted any (I insisted for my little math student). I mean, it was about 5 hours since she last ate.
Anyway, I ran to get us some food and came back just as the mom had gotten to the school. I gave my student the food and wished her a nice (by that time) evening. Since then, she has become my top math student. Now, it helps that she's a very bright girl but she's paying attention a lot more. She raises her hand to solve problems, she helps her classmates, and she's just doing much better in class. I'm very proud of how much her interest in school has grown.
edit: I realize that the percentages I was referring to were actually in this thread. Ironically, I had quoted the same quote back in October (nice to see that the same things catch my eye). Though, I was also perusing my old post and I mentioned how I thought that parents were the least involved in the child's success. My, how my opinion has changed through my first year of teaching.
Last edited by endersshadow; 01-26-2010 at 06:44 PM..
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I agree. If a teacher doesn't have the respect of their students from day one, the year is lost. I have multiple students who are determined to show I don't deserve respect because, according to them, I don't respect them (Translation, I ask them to do things they don't want to, expect them to follow instructions and won't allow them to argue with me about it. It's an uphill battle and all I can do is stand my ground. I am, after all the one they put in charge of the classroom for a reason. If students were meant to be in charge they would be.) Unfortunately, as soon as one student treats the teacher disrespectfully, there are others who gain the courage to do so who follow in their footsteps. The difference between my classes where I don't have students who disrespect me and those where I do is amazing. Teaching is fun in the classes where I'm respected. It's a PITA in the ones where I'm not. 
, over my policy that the maximum grade is a C on a retake. 
), don't make a difference between passing and failing. 
