Should the Texas Legislature Pass a Law to Allow the Open Carrying of Firearms? (Point: rating, money)

[Mr. Chad]

I don't know if I've chimed in yet for this thread, but I am all for advancing pro-gun laws. As for open carry, I am open to it, but personally probably wouldn't actually open carry, unless I'm hunting or at a shooting range. I just wanted to be protected from getting arrested or whatever if the wind blows my shirt tail up exposing my rig.

[TexasReb]

Originally Posted by Mr. Chad

I don't know if I've chimed in yet for this thread, but I am all for advancing pro-gun laws. As for open carry, I am open to it, but personally probably wouldn't actually open carry, unless I'm hunting or at a shooting range. I just wanted to be protected from getting arrested or whatever if the wind blows my shirt tail up exposing my rig.

This is an extremely good point Mr. Chad.

Hell, even though I have I have a CCL at present, I very seldom actually carry. But as you indicate, the concealed carry laws as written subject the carrier to arrest if their weapon is "printed" (i.e. reasonably detected as evident...yet subject to subjective interpretation. ). If nothing else, an "open carry" law would eliminate that possibility.

And most of us "pro-carry" people know, there are zealot police officers and prosecutors, especially young ones in large urban areas largely populated by transplants from the NE and west coast, who have a "brought in" outlook that the average citizen has "no business" carrying a handgun. On lots of levels -- to their way of thinking -- it is like to do so is an "affront" to what they consider their own domain.

So yeah, open-carry laws would work to negate that aspect of it, for sure!

[Mr. Chad]

Originally Posted by TexasReb

This is an extremely good point Mr. Chad.

Hell, even though I have I have a CCL at present, I very seldom actually carry. But as you indicate, the concealed carry laws as written subject the carrier to arrest if their weapon is "printed" (i.e. reasonably detected as evident...yet subject to subjective interpretation. ). If nothing else, an "open carry" law would eliminate that possibility.

And most of us "pro-carry" people know, there are zealot police officers and prosecutors, especially young ones in large urban areas largely populated by transplants from the NE and west coast, who have a "brought in" outlook that the average citizen has "no business" carrying a handgun. On lots of levels -- to their way of thinking -- it is like to do so is an "affront" to what they consider their own domain.

So yeah, open-carry laws would work to negate that aspect of it, for sure!

Agreed!!!! Once I relocate I'll have to find something that would fit well on my skinny frame and not print lol....
maybe a Kahr 9mm-.45 or something slim.

I can imagine that in the hot summer, I probably wouldn't want to carry anything on me..

[majormadmax]

Originally Posted by TexasReb

This is an extremely good point Mr. Chad.

Hell, even though I have I have a CCL at present, I very seldom actually carry. But as you indicate, the concealed carry laws as written subject the carrier to arrest if their weapon is "printed" (i.e. reasonably detected as evident...yet subject to subjective interpretation. ). If nothing else, an "open carry" law would eliminate that possibility.

And most of us "pro-carry" people know, there are zealot police officers and prosecutors, especially young ones in large urban areas largely populated by transplants from the NE and west coast, who have a "brought in" outlook that the average citizen has "no business" carrying a handgun. On lots of levels -- to their way of thinking -- it is like to do so is an "affront" to what they consider their own domain.

So yeah, open-carry laws would work to negate that aspect of it, for sure!

Again, there are NO "printing" laws in Texas, you cannot be arrested for it.

The Penal Code is very clear on what displays of firearms are arrestable offenses, printing is not one of them nor is it addressed.

Secondly, I have yet to encounter a single "zealot police officers and prosecutors" in all my time living here. If anything, every police officer I know (and I know a lot from SAPD officer here to police chiefs in outlying areas all the way up to Federal law enforcement agents) and not a single one has ever had an issue with law-abiding citizens carrying firearms. The biggest threat to the rights of gun owners in this state are liberal politicians and I hate to bunch them all in one group but the vast majority of them are Democrats! It is a Democrat that is keeping OC (HB 700) locked in committee and not up for a vote.

People need to wise up on who they are electing to represent them, and clean up Texas government!

[majormadmax]

Originally Posted by Mr. Chad

Agreed!!!! Once I relocate I'll have to find something that would fit well on my skinny frame and not print lol....
maybe a Kahr 9mm-.45 or something slim.

I can imagine that in the hot summer, I probably wouldn't want to carry anything on me..

I carry a full-sized XD-45 Service year-round, and have never had any problems concealing it. I'm 6' 2" and a roughly 198 lbs. I even use an OWB leather holster for it on occasion and with the right shirt, still have no indications that I am carrying.

Get the right equipment and you'll have no problems whatsoever, any time of the year. It's a much better idea than not carrying at all!

[TexasReb]

Originally Posted by majormadmax

Again, there are NO "printing" laws in Texas, you cannot be arrested for it.

The Penal Code is very clear on what displays of firearms are arrestable offenses, printing is not one of them nor is it addressed.

No, "printing" does not specifically appear. You are correct on that. BUT...what is specifically said is that the weapon must be concealed. Which brings into play the "printing" issue.

Secondly, I have yet to encounter a single "zealot police officers and prosecutors" in all my time living here. If anything, every police officer I know (and I know a lot from SAPD officer here to police chiefs in outlying areas all the way up to Federal law enforcement agents) and not a single one has ever had an issue with law-abiding citizens carrying firearms.

I have no reason to question your experience and statements on the matter. On the other hand, I have quite a few relations in law-enforcement (ranging from city police to undercover DPS officers), and worked for two years myself in a county sheriffs department (even deputized a few times), and know some on a personal level even today. And this is feedback information I get from all of them. This does NOT negate your own observations, as mine are the same. What I am saying is that these first-hand experiences of mine verify that there are a small -- very small -- minority of law-enforcement officers in some of the larger cities who do adopt the attitude that the right to carry a firearm is an affront to their hot-dog sense of themselves as being the sole bearers. I know what I am talking about just as I am sure you do.

The biggest threat to the rights of gun owners in this state are liberal politicians and I hate to bunch them all in one group but the vast majority of them are Democrats! It is a Democrat that is keeping OC (HB 700) locked in committee and not up for a vote.

I agree with this totally.

[Mr. Chad]

Originally Posted by majormadmax

I carry a full-sized XD-45 Service year-round, and have never had any problems concealing it. I'm 6' 2" and a roughly 198 lbs. I even use an OWB leather holster for it on occasion and with the right shirt, still have no indications that I am carrying.

Get the right equipment and you'll have no problems whatsoever, any time of the year. It's a much better idea than not carrying at all!

I have my eye on a Kahr PM9 or G4 Glock 19...

[majormadmax]

Originally Posted by TexasReb

No, "printing" does not specifically appear. You are correct on that. BUT...what is specifically said is that the weapon must be concealed. Which brings into play the "printing" issue.

Show me one, just one, arrest record where the individual charged wasn't displaying the handgun "in a manner calculated to alarm" (Texas Penal Code, Sec. 42.01. DISORDERLY CONDUCT) and I'd agree, but it simply hasn't happened.

Printing is not intentional, nor has anyone ever been arrested for it. The concept that the obvious outline of a handgun under clothing etc is "exposed" is not addressed in Texas law nor is it defined in the Penal Code anywhere.

As a matter of fact, there is no such concept as "printing" at all in Texas law, a handgun is either exposed or it's not!

I've heard that same "argument" a thousand times and have had lawyers who specialize in the Texas Penal Code all agree that the concept of printing simply doesn't exist the way state laws are currently written!

[TexasReb]

Believe it or not, we are actually very much on the same side. You seem to be taking umbrage here when there is no reason to take it. Further -- IMHO -- missing my point. Which, ok, I might not have explained very well. So to proceed..

Originally Posted by majormadmax

Show me one, just one, arrest record where the individual charged wasn't displaying the handgun "in a manner calculated to alarm" (Texas Penal Code, Sec. 42.01. DISORDERLY CONDUCT) and I'd agree, but it simply hasn't happened.

But let's backtrack. I asked in an earlier post if you had any "precedent case" (operative term here) information on another related issue. In that case it was a minor quibble over whether or not there was any case law that backed up your contention that the "exception" to prosecution for carrying a handgun might not apply to regular employees of a business or someone who is on/in another's private home, property, business, etc, under the "premises under your control" provision, unless they possessed a license to carry. That post is #63.

I wasn't disputing what you said, only asking if there was a precedent case...which applied to the below:

Printing is not intentional, nor has anyone ever been arrested for it. The concept that the obvious outline of a handgun under clothing etc is "exposed" is not addressed in Texas law nor is it defined in the Penal Code anywhere. As a matter of fact, there is no such concept as "printing" at all in Texas law, a handgun is either exposed or it's not! I've heard that same "argument" a thousand times and have had lawyers who specialize in the Texas Penal Code all agree that the concept of printing simply doesn't exist the way state laws are currently written

This is precisely my point. The fact that the spirit of the law may mean something by way of common sense, does NOT mean that overly zealous law-enforcement officers/prosecutors cannot and will not arrest/prosecute under the very provision you accurately point out. That is displayed in a "manner calculated to alarm". And like I said, I have many friends/kin in law-enforcement who will tell you that there are some of their fellows who truly believe that only they should have the right to carry a handgun.

Are they they the majority? Hell no. Not even a notable minority, far as that goes (thank God), but are they out there? Yep, they sure are. But again (thank God) usually confined to the large urban areas not typical to true Texas!

You are right. The term "printing" is simply a "slang term" coined to summarize the general "alarm" exception. And although it may not have happened? That doesn't mean it can't. Is is likely? No. But is it possible? Yes.

Which is a biggest reason I favor open carry laws. That way, all is covered (no irony intended! LOL)

[majormadmax]

Sorry, but I choose to be concerned of things that have some probability of occurring; and since I know what the law states and that no one has ever been arrested for "printing" I don't find it to be just cause for pushing open carry.

There are more legitimate reasons to allow OC in Texas than protecting against something that has never happened since concealed carry was allowed in Texas back on 1 January, 1996 to any of the current 460,000+ active CHLs !